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 Post subject: workhorse
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:29 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 87
Looking for a japanese/wa gyuto thats on the heavier/ thicker side. (stainless or stainful)
Doesn't have to be deba heavy, want to use as a gyuto but very occasionally for fish at home.
As I noticed my tojiro dp isnt sharp enough to cleanly cut through fish skin.

 Post subject: Re: workhorse
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:59 am 
Let me first ask: Do you sharpen your Tojiro DP?

It should get very sharp, we dog VG-10 sometimes, but it's no slouch. It'll take 8k refinement, and holds a 2k edge rather well, which should get through a fish easily.

Now, if you do sharpen it, what angle to do you sharpen it at? If you're going above 20 degrees at the edge, then the perceived bite of the edge will be very low. Thinning it out (aka sharpening at a lower angle like 15 degrees) will help a lot.

If all of the questions have been answered, and you're still looking for a thicker knife as a home-use gyuto, I might recommend you get a Yamashin White #1.

That's a 210mm, assuming you want an 8 inch knife for home use. They make a 240 as well. The core steel is loads of fun to sharpen, and the knife is slightly thicker with a really good grind.

If you want something like your Tojiro, but taller and heavier, I can recommend a Masamoto VG series, or CT series.

Let us know what sparks your interests as far as design, whether you want something more like your Tojiro, or more like the Yamashin. :)

 Post subject: Re: workhorse
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:56 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:46 am
Posts: 217
As Shaun said, the problem with "not sharp enough" doesn't lay with the Tojiro itself but with the sharpener.

I disagree with his knife recommendations though; at least not if you're looking for one knife that will take a really good edge, is heavy and sturdy enough to cut through fish spines, and will retain that good edge afterwards.

The Yamashin is well priced, but there's no way you can make a knife from a prestige alloy like White #1 without cutting some corners, and the Yamashin is -- let's face it -- crude. That isn't to say it isn't a good choice for a heavy-duty knife to do back-up duty for the tough stuff your Tojiro you shouldn't mess with. But as an all around gyuto? If you're looking for something as refined as the Tojiro DP, which isn't all that refined, the Yamashin isn't close.

The Masamoto VG, and CT (carbon) are too light. The VG is a great knife, but is soft enough that the edge tends to roll (i.e., "bend" or go out of true) with abuse. The good news is that it's fairly chip resistant and can be steeled. Ditto the CT. To my mind they are both significantly better knives than the DP... but not for the purposes I think you're pointing towards.

Sometimes it seems like people who recommend the knives they chose for themselves are more in search of validation for their own decisions than really listening to the needs of the person who's asking for advice. So, I hate to do it. However...

You should look very seriously at the Richmond Ultimatum. I'm familiar with the 52100 (own it) and Bohler 390 (friend has one) iterations, and each fits your expressed desires to a "T." I expect the AEB-L and HD versions would suit you about as well.

Also, I strongly recommend something in the 10", 240mm, 270mm class over a 210 for home use. Longer knives have flatter profiles which gives them a better chopping action, their longer edges retain sharp spots longer, they handle large amounts of food more efficiently, they don't give up much -- if anything -- in the way of weight or agility, etc., etc. There are valid reasons to prefer a 210, and if you have decent knife skills it comes down to how much space you have, and to taste. But most people go short because they lack the skills to use a medium length knife as intuitively, and those skills are all grip and very easily mastered.

Do yourself a favor and at least take a look at the Ultimatums.

Hope this helps,

 Post subject: Re: workhorse
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:36 pm
Posts: 3330
I'm not quite sure how a thicker/heavier knife will help if you problem is cutting fit cleanly. In fact, I think it would be detrimental.

And I agree with the others about VG10 Tojiro's capable of taking an edge that would cut fish cleanly. It certainly can do this.

Are you maybe wanting a knife to cut through fish bones? If that's the case, I think your best best would be a standard weight gyuto, sharpened rather obtusely.

Which one depends on what characteristics you're after in a knife.

The other two, BDL & Shaun, have differing each their own as they say.


 Post subject: Re: workhorse
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 87
let me clarify..
I do sharpen it to about 10 degrees and refine to 6k stone, Im not an expert on sharpening, but I get an edge on it.
But when I do work with fish, I dont use a towel to hold it down so its a tad slippery.

And Im looking for a tough (or not fragile) gyuto I can use at work
but also at home for fish and fish bones

sorry for confusion

 Post subject: Re: workhorse
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 87
(In case I worded it wrong)
work: as a gyuto (no fish)
home: for fish and fish bones
Just looking for a wa handle knife thats on the thicker heavier side w/o being a deba
but still has good steel and geometry

 Post subject: Re: workhorse
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:24 pm 
I would think the Masamotos would fit the bill rather well in some aspects but not others; they aren't light knives and have fairly tough steel for those occasional fish bones, but the profile may not be the best for working with fish, can't comment too much there. Same as the Ultimatum in 52100 or 19c27, but I can see the Ultimatums profile doing better with fish with the thinner tip. The M390 Ultimatums are a lighter than the previous 2 but I can't comment on toughness of M390 steel never having abused it yet.

I think at the end of the day you are going to still want to improve your knife skills, meaning that getting used to a bigger knife should be one of your goals right now.

As far as a 10 degree edge at 6k... I find that VG-10 really doesn't hold up at 10 degrees, but I've been wrong before. I think you're losing the edge too fast, otherwise it should do better against fish than a thicker knife will do, it's just simple physics. :ugeek:

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