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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:10 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:10 pm
Posts: 181
Desol,

I'm not trying to argue with you. And perhaps my writing is reading harsher than I intend.

I am interested in the reasons you think cleaning the patina is the correct option. Aesthetic preference is a perfectly valid reason. I spend hours detailing my car simply because I like having a clean car.


Last edited by dougmc on Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:18 pm
Posts: 280
desol wrote:
I researched material over the course of about a year in my own personal search on how to care for my knife the way I intrinsically knew should be available....and guess what, I was correct in my assertion. I just can't believe how HARD it was to find out the information on how to properly clean my knife without ruining it. :?


Seems like this would be an excellent opportunity to share some of what you learned with the rest of us . . .


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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:20 am
Posts: 483
dougmc wrote:Desol,

I'm not trying to argue with you. And perhaps my writing is reading harsher than I intend.

I am interested in the reasons you think cleaning the patina is the correct option. Aesthetic preference is a perfectly valid reason. I spend hours detailing my car simply because I like having a clean car.

@ Doug and Todd

Well, that's a big reason. Like I stated before, I didn't spend $500 on a Fujiyama to let it deteriorate aesthetically....yet, every forum I went to had no answers as far a complete picture of how these knives were maintained....start to finish. Every forum members opinion, or the vast majority stopped at "you kinda have to let it patina"..."rust is a normal part of owning a carbon knife". I knew that was completely false, so it was just a matter of finding out their (the Japanese) process of keeping these knives in nice condition. I respect the work that Fujiyama and his team did, and I expect to maintain those standards. Not that they (can) care, but they'd probably like to see their knives maintained nicely, with attention.

And I kinda wished (even tho it was interesting learning)...that the complete maintenance picture was more accessible right off the bat, instead of being painful to uncover, especially considering the dollar values involved...for a knife.

But it isn't really a knife is it? It's art. Japanese knives embody so many different aspects to a higher level (imo) than so many other knives do, even other handmade knives...they talk about the soul, the feel, the weight, the balance, the fineness of the edge...everything is precision and with creativity and it's done with respect to nature. I respect that complexity.

Anyway, I'm not this fussy with a more accessible Kurouchi knife...just the knives that are polished and obviously have generations of work put into them. Kitchen knives of this calibre aren't that different than family swords that are kept in immaculate condition (and are 'very' expensive). I'm not talking ww2 swords...I'm talking NBTHK certified swords. Aesthetic and respect are the main reasons for me. I'm not a skilled sushi chef, so I'm not aware of the vast intricacies otherwise involved. Intricacies such as ruining the delicate flesh of a certain type of fish, because of a dirty knife, etc...



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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 125
Location: Connecticut
desol wrote:Intricacies such as ruining the delicate flesh of a certain type of fish, because of a dirty knife, etc...


If you are still discussing patina, I believe that it is the result of a chemical reaction, hence I would hesitate to characterize it as "dirty".


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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:20 am
Posts: 483
I don't know what it's the result of...before or after or both....all I know, is that in THAT world it's not acceptable, and I'm assuming it's for more reasons that aesthetics alone.

But hey, what do I know? :)

You can't say anything around here without offending somebody. Who's throwing all the eggshells all over the floor!

I know that's it's not 'dirt' per say...as in mud or food residue left on the knife....but it's considered so, when dealing with keeping certain foods very 'pure'.
The knife is...hmmm what word works, that doesn't offend? The knife is...unacceptable in certain situations when dealing with certain foods. Is that better or..?
...does it need to be more politically correct than that, so that it doesn't offend?

Stained>? Maybe that's better... Artistically altered>?? Prepared for the worst? :|

I didn't make the rules...don't shoot the messenger.



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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:49 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 662
OK, so let's all cut the grabassing. If one were to maintain a knife without patina how does one go about it? What techniques have you learned? How does one avoid ruining ingredients with a highly reactive blade?


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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:36 am 
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It's simple really, it just takes more work. I've read that it's the job of apprentices to do this work...so that it doesn't phase the main guys. Regardless, in some places it's their job to polish off the remaining patina on the knives at the end of every shift. I think a lot of guys who do this in Japan use a special powder...probably high grit, food grade type powder. No idea what it's called. Mark might know. I use the slurry from my Coticule which works great. I tried to get the powder from Jon (japanese knife imports), because he does carry it...but I decided the Coticule slurry worked great...and the shipping cost was far more than the cost of the powder. However, it puts more wear on the Coticule.

I still might get some. We'll see.

I'm (assuming) you mix the powder in water and (I learned the hard way) use a soft cloth to polish out whatever remains. A dedicated soft cloth is important, because if you use something ragged, you'll scratch the knife all up...and then good luck trying to get rid of the scratches (unless you have machine drive or something, like Taz).

I've settled on using water fairly liberally while in use (important), and then using the soft cloth and slurry to do the final polishing.

Works excellent and keeps the knife in it's original condition. I'm assuming the more you let the stain develop, the harder it is to get rid of completely, so I polish the Fujiyama every time I use it...which isn't so bad, because I don't use it as my only knife. I use a couple different knives for different things...so having to polish off the Gyuto everyday isn't a problem. (even if it was my only knife, it still wouldn't be a problem)

I'm glad that I took the time to figure all this out...because the knife is exactly how I wanted it to be, almost a year later...+ I'm at a point now where I'm in control of how and where I want the patina to exist, if any.


Last edited by desol on Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.


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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:51 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:03 am
Posts: 27
I seen on the first page of this thread someone mentioned Bar Keepers Friend and I use the liquid stuff although I can buy the powdered stuff as well,what I was wondering is if anyone can explain a bit more how to use it on a Japanese Knife,I know you put the stuff on the blade of course but how long do you let it sit there or do you just apply it rub it around and then wash it off.

I'm just thinking that with BKF if you let it sit on it may etch the metal as it is an Acid.


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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:00 am 
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That's partially why I found that stone (inert) slurry works a treat. Probably 5k and up...
I wish I knew what the powder was that they used. I saw some powder on here that Mark sells, but I don't know if it's the stuff or not.

Anyway, no chemicals, food grade...no weirdness or unintentional poisoning... Just sayin!



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 Post subject: Re: White Steel rusted?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:40 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:07 am
Posts: 371
If you are using the liquid BKF, just put some on the exposed carbon steel and rub lightly until it starts to dry out(takes less than a minute). Then rinse it off. You can reapply as needed to achieve your desired results. Be careful as it can scratch softer cladding materials and will remove kurouchi finishes as well.


Last edited by mark on Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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