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 Post subject: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:01 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:56 pm
Posts: 8
Hi there,
I've got a 400 + 1k stone and I'm planning on getting a higher grit stone or 2.
Been looking at the green brick, snow white and glass stones.
What stone would you guys recommend?
Cheers,
big.me


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 Post subject: Re: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:17 pm 

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 am
Posts: 294
Location: Amstelveen, The Netherlands
Which 400 and 1k do you have? And what kind of knives?


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 Post subject: Re: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:56 pm
Posts: 8
A tojiro ITK gyuto for now, which I'm planning to upgrade. And 400/1000 is a combo stone that I got as a gift from my other half over Christmas haha. It's not that bad so I don't want to hurt her feelings by buying a replacement :P


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 Post subject: Re: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:31 pm 
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From a personal standpoint, when it comes to carbon steel, 4k is a very nice followup to 1k. White #2 in your ITK will take a screaming sharp edge, I've shaved with it more than once. :mrgreen:
I would not recommend, however, that you go above 4k coming from a 1k. I have this little rule about jumping grits more than 4 times (aka 1k to 4k, or 4k to 16k.. etc.) Skipping from something under 1k to something over 1k is great if you're doing a 2-step veggie prep edge, aka 320 to 2k, but that's a special type of edge. Leaving too many holes in your progression will leave you with too many questions and too big of a learning curve for someone just starting out.

If it were me, I'd probably grab a 4k Shapton, because I'm partial to Shaptons, and the 4k is a great stone. If you don't have a stone holder, get the Pro series 5k, as it comes with its own base.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shpro50.html

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shgl40gr.html

If he Green Brick interests you, by all means grab it. For the price you aren't going to get much better. Just be sure you have a small diamond plate to lap it and keep it clean, it clogs fast, gouches easy, and makes lots of lovely green mud. :mrgreen:



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 Post subject: Re: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:24 am 
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My bias would be an Aoto - a real one, not a synthetic one - for a carbon steel knife past the 1k. Here you would have a stone that starts out at a little more than 1k and refines itself to about a 4k edge. So instead of using a 4k stone to do initial 2k level work, use a stone that gets finer as you need to get the edge finer. Best of all worlds. And very pleasurable to use too.

Additionally you get a natural stone finish in the package. This is particularly nice with a white steel knife, giving you a nice contrast between the softer cladding and the core steel - a classical kasumi finish. An Aono aoto would work quite nicely here.

---
Ken



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 Post subject: Re: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:47 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:34 pm
Posts: 158
Ken-
Would you mind going into more detail how a natural stone can vary grits? Is it a matter of working slurry and bresking down compounds??
Thanks
Jared



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 Post subject: Re: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:55 am 
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Yes - exactly. Synthetic stones have as their abrasive Silicon carbide or Aluminum oxide for the most part, embedded in a binder. As the particles release they wear down the metal. The release rate increases abrasion rates, but the particle sizes remain relatively constant, but can 'dull' a bit.

Natural stone particles are a mix of particles of various hardnesses and shapes, most just a bit harder than the metal rather than much harder. This leads to different scratch patterns produced on softer steel than harder steel, with the softer steel getting more of a matte finish with coarser scratches and the harder steel getting a hazy shiny finish like an antique mirror. This contrast brings out interesting patterns in the steel, highly prized by those liking a natural finish - especially sword polishers who often seek to accentuate these contrasts and even small near microscopic struictures at the borderline between hard and softer steel (referred to as 'niori').

Sometimes these natural stone particles are closer to corn flakes than spheres or cubes. As the mud is used, these flakes and various other shapes break down into smaller flakes - thus the 'grit' or average particle size, irregular though they might be, become smaller and more refined. So you start out with a rougher mud - which does the initial work more rapidly and then as the mud breaks down you get a finer and finer finish.

If you are doing a couple of knives, you can break down the mud with the first knife and just start with a finer mud for subsequent knives - or start with fresh mud that is coarser and refine it again - your choice. you can even leave the mud on the stone to dry if you plan on coming back in the next couple days, but long term, don't leave mud there for a long time (on synthetics too) or the metal swarf in the mud will rust.

You can enhance or modulate the breakdown rate too. If you want a coarser initial mud, use a diamond lapping square (1200 finest to 140 coarsest). For finer mud use a small piece of the same stone to build up the initial mud like a small piece of aoto in this case. To more rapidly refine the mud further, consider adding some CBN - just a hint of it) to the slurry, selecting CBN of a finer grit than the natural stone so as not to interfere with the natural stone finish. This is the topic of another thread with a most interesting video well worth watching:

supercharged-jnat-straight-razor-edge-t2349.html

---
Ken



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 Post subject: Re: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:28 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:56 pm
Posts: 8
thanks knife fanatic and ken123 for your replies. There seems to be too many stones for me to choose from. I think I'll like a harder stone, seems like the Nubatama Ume 4k grit seems like a good stone for me to have?
What stone at 4k gives the best finish?


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 Post subject: Re: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:56 pm 
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The Ume 4k is a good stone, but if what you are going for is a hard stone, consider the Shapton Pro 5k. Super hard, but less feedback. Feels somewhat like skating on ice. A good finish on double bevels but not as good on single bevels (too hard). The Shapton GlassStone 4k is a bit softer than the 5k Pro, but not by much and has a bit more feedback. These stones are best if you hold your angles precisely, but if you want a bit more 'flexibility in a more forgiving stone, the Ume 4k is nice. It is similar in formulation and feel to a chocera 3k - but finer - and not as soft as a Chocera 5k.

---
Ken



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 Post subject: Re: What stone after 1k?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:08 am 
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Location: Herentals, Belgium
The Ume 4k is indeed a nice stone. I liked it for single bevels.

The Shapton 5k is super hard indeed and I love it for my double beveled edges. The Chosera 3k has awesome feedback too.



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