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 Post subject: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:09 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:09 pm
Posts: 66
Discussion open on Ceramic Hones (or... all Not about water/Oil stones lol): ;)

Can any one offer any info on what is the finest Hard flat ceramic plate/Hone available 3000, 6000, 8000, also can anyone offer any sources and prices? :)


Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:59 pm 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
Posts: 1098
There is only one true ceramic stone and it's made by spyderco.


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 Post subject: Re: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:26 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:09 pm
Posts: 66
JB: :shock:

Ok thanks... but a h h h . . . I've seen at least 3 diff. ones for sale in the last couple yrs incl. an Ultra fine listed at 3000 grit flat bench hone that I've seen and that doesn't even count the 1 Franz Swatty, 2 diff. sets of Spyderco, and one Bear Paw sportsman, Ceramic sharpeners that I currently own. :lol:

Now I have to wonder what all this other allegedly true Ceramic stuff is made from if only Spyderco's products are truly Ceramic.

I also wonder why there aren't more ceramic sharpening/Honing plates on the mkt. since maintenance and upkeep, and cleanup are such a pleasure comparatively speaking.

I really like the idea of using Diamond and Ceramic plates in the Early and mid stages of sharpening, then maybe going to a 8-10-15000 water before stropping on copy paper loaded W/ CBN on flat plate glass.
Thanks for the info. :D


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 Post subject: Re: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:15 am 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
Posts: 1098
I said that because when most say ceramic they are speaking of a Shapton. If you are actually speaking of fired ceramic then yes, there is more than spyderco. Spyderco happens to make some of the best ones though.


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 Post subject: Re: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:06 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:09 pm
Posts: 66
Yes Fired Ceramic is the subject of discussion. :D


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 Post subject: Re: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:11 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:09 pm
Posts: 66
Please expand on the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:28 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:50 am
Posts: 240
Technically, all synthetic stones are ceramics; the abrasive type, size, and bonding agent being the differentiation. Ceramics are simply inorganic minerals bonded together- often man made in the context we think of. Most people think "glass" when they hear "ceramic," however while all glass is ceramic, not all ceramic is glass. Glass fits into a non-crystalline ceramic category, while sharpening stones fit into the crystalline category with other types of pottery and industrial ceramics that contain crystalline molecules. Crystalline ceramics for the purpose of sharpening usually contain aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, or tungsten carbide and other minerals.

Spyderco uses alumina, aka aluminum oxide, in their "ceramic" stones, just like a large number of other stones. This is just theory, but at the temperature they fire the stones, the binding agent may actually evaporate off completely. What you end up with is a nearly pure "stone" of bonded aluminum oxide- hence the higher price. Other stone makers seem to use considerably less AO and have a binder, like clay, that persists after their baking process, likely at lower temperatures.

Shapton also uses the ceramic terminology to define their stones, but they are more secretive with their process and molecular chemistry. Ken may know more about the specifics, but it's likely they also use an aluminum oxide based abrasive. The glass series looks similar in hand to the other "ceramic" sharpening items I've had in the past, including a small spyderco pocket stone that I inherited; from use though, Shaptons are much are more aggressive than the "ceramic" marketed sharpening products out there.

King stones likely use a kaolinite based aluminum oxide composition (aluminum oxide and clay composite), and in my experience there is a lot more binder than abrasive. Considering most stones use aluminum oxide or silicon carbide as the abrasive component, the major differences between lines and brands seem to be the different binders and supplemental minerals.



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 Post subject: Re: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:12 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 952
Nice post Okie!


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 Post subject: Re: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:12 am 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
Posts: 1098
There is no binder with spyderco stones the stone is of pure abrasive and bonded through a process of sintering. It's the same process in which most Synthetic Oil stones are made.

The ceramic used by spyderco is a high density ceramic and though classified as a ceramic the shapton stones are not the same type of stone. Spyderco stones are more like your coffee cup and will wear out when the world ends. They have their down sides to working with high hardness steels though and are somewhat slow and difficult to clean. That and the fact most sintered ceramics are only available in medium to fine grits probably make them a less than popular bench stone option.


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 Post subject: Re: any info about Ceramic Hones & sharpeners.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:50 am
Posts: 240
Per Spyderco's website: "Made from Alumina Ceramic, it is manufactured in the United States using a process where a binding agent is combined with Alumina particles...The stone is shaped then kiln fired to temperature of 3000 degrees F (1649-C)."

Per Alcoa's website: "Alcoa is the world's leading producer of alumina...Alumina is a white granular material...and is properly called aluminum oxide." (This concurs with other available information.)

The extreme pressure of sintering would certainly account for the higher density in Spyderco's stones, but they still use a fairly common abrasive, which is aluminum oxide. Spyderco tries to differentiate themselves by calling it "alumina ceramic with a binder," but that is not saying much more than bonded aluminum oxide. Most other uses of aluminum oxide occur with a less than pure form, called corundum. This is what you see often in sandpaper, grinding wheels, abrasive liquids, and sharpening stones. Corundum is just aluminum oxide with traces of impurities (other elements).

Considering aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, and tungsten carbide all rate pretty closely in hardness, the bigger difference between stones is going to be the concentration of abrasive, type of binder, and manufacturing method. Sometimes, in the case of Spyderco and similar "ceramics," their concentration of abrasive does not always equate to an aggressive cutter. Having used both, I'd pick a Shapton ceramic stone over a Spyderco any day.

Edit:typo



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