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 Post subject: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:37 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 79
Ok, I will make this short as possible. I have been cooking professionally for about 5 years now, and have a nice selection of knives.. Kono, a Masomoto, an AS Laser and now a White #1 Goko. I also have good stones- a 1k and 6k shapton, and an edge pro set up. I splurged for the edge pro because i was getting INTENSELY frustrated with edges that were not holding up. I feel my sharpening tech is decent. As far as I can tell I follow the edge, I get them to shave… I understand the burr process etc.

I have a co-worker with a regular carbon misono that he's had forever and he gets this thing to hold a decent edge for-ev-er. it doesn't stay shaving sharp, but it stays sharp all week. I get my knives super sharp but by the end of the day i find them barely usable.

I try to use the edge pro on the higher end knives- the kono and the richmond, so that my angle will be constant. As I am using it tho, it is sometimes difficult to push the rod, and its like the knife is cutting into the stone material; which is obviously counterproductive. When I watched some of Marks sharpening videos, he says he doesn't even push the blade against the stone when freehand sharpening. Instead he pulls it towards him. I feel that the edge pro does exactly the opposite of this.

Pardon my rambling, but I find it so frustrating that I cannot get an edge to hold, especially after a good deal of practice. any help would be appreciated. thanks guys.


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 Post subject: Re: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:48 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:29 pm
Posts: 500
What angle are you sharpening at? The steeper the angle the faster it will degrade. You might try a more durable angle and possibly top it off with a micro bevel if you wish.

Other things you might post to help better answer your question. What knife, steel, product you are cutting, board you are using, and what stone progression are you using now? What grit level stone are you stopping at currently?

I don't have experience using the edge pro...


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 Post subject: Re: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:53 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:34 pm
Posts: 40
I'm a novice myself, only been sharpening about a year now. It might be you are taking the edges to the extreme as far as angle goes. Or it could be you are not removing the bur properly or you have a wire edge. From what I gather they say the edge material gets fatigued and nothing but a good sharpening where you remove a good amount of material solves it. Could be your not getting a proper edge to begin with.

You need to spend most of your time on the course stone and get the bevel right. Once its right you can move on to touching up and polishing.

I think if you explained your process, some of these more experienced folks will chime in with some solutions or suggestions.


Dave


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 Post subject: Re: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:59 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 79
I do the White kono and AS laser at +/- 15 degrees. On the edge pro I go 1K shapton glass to 4K. Freehand I go 1K-6K. The boards are the poly/rubber commercial boards. on my knives that have a 70/30 edge, I was thinking maybe I do not sharpen the backside enough. I find the backside more difficult to hold a consistent angle at. Which is again why I bought the edge pro. I feel like I keep my stones pretty flat as well.
For edge pro users- is this sharpie test really that important? the bevels on my mono and richmond are so small I feel like I should be able to just set it to 15 degrees and go


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 Post subject: Re: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:08 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:42 am
Posts: 65
I've had similar problems with work knives only, not my home use knives. Some of my co-workers knives would do the same thing, and really tried my patience because I had superior knives and knife skill. It took awhile to figure out some of the causes. Poly boards really did a number on my edge, but compared to my co-workers who use the same boards, the problem was because of my intensity. I made more cuts, faster and because of my confidence with a knife, I was just blowing through prep. This intensity was part 1 of the problem.

Part 2 had to do with the edge. I was getting great edges no doubt, but too good in way. My edges kept failing, and after some experementation, I found an edge finished to shave sharp with the lower grit stone than my finisher had a more durable edge. For me that means a a Green Brick 2k edge finished with 1 micron stop. After I started sharpening this way, I experienced prolonged knife performance.

In addition to sharpening, I used a strop at work until the edge didn't seem to pop back as fast, then I'd switch to maintainence with an Idahone ceramic rod. This would buy me at least a week if I used the same knife daily. I also employed multiple prep knives with dedicated tasks. I would always use my Konosuke Addict for chopping kale, and if it was sharp enough, I would continue to use it for bells, otherwise I'd switch to a sharper knife for that prep. I try to limit my use of the ceramic rod though, and touch up with the 2k before it got so dull that a 1k or lower (god forbid) stone was needed.


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 Post subject: Re: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:18 pm
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Location: Madison Wisconsin
How do you maintain the edge between sharpening? Are you using a rod or strop? How often are you doing edge maintenance?

It's most likely impossible but if you tossed your poly boards and cut on an end grain wood board I'm sure that would do wonders for your edge retention. Most restaurants won't allow it.



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 Post subject: Re: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:20 am
Posts: 476
Have you asked him what his sharpening technique is? Might also have something to with with the differences in cutting style, technique, weight, etc.

Maybe you're heavier on your knives than he is?

I like mine to stay close to shaving sharp...so I strop them every second or third day/use.

However, I'm not in a professional kitchen...



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 Post subject: Re: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:06 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:17 am
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Get your co- worker to sharpen your knives and see if they hold up better then you will know if it's your sharpening that is killing the edge.



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 Post subject: Re: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:14 am 

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 am
Posts: 270
Location: Amstelveen, The Netherlands
When your co-worker is using a Misono Carbon and you're comparing to other steel types, the difference will be in deburring, and possibly a wire edge on your blades.
Simple carbon gets deburred very easily, others don't.


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 Post subject: Re: To the sharpeners...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:15 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:01 pm
Posts: 357
Location: ATL
emalsky wrote: " As I am using it tho, it is sometimes difficult to push the rod, and its like the knife is cutting into the stone material; which is obviously counterproductive."

---

This seems like a red flag to me. I'm just thinking out loud here, I'd suggest taking it back to basics and question and validate each one of your steps with the EP. I had a "kind of" similar issue recently with my EP, in my case at one point along the line I got the two rod arms flipped around and the 15º EP mark was in fact a 10.5º. Not saying that's your issue, but I went back to square one and validated each step until I found this.
So, with regard to the knife edge sticking or biting into your stones then to me something "major" isn't correct. It shouldn't do that. I have the Shaptons (GS) as well 1,2,4,8k.

Things to consider - If you are indeed losing your edge, is the metal so fatigued that you need to go lower than 1k or spend some time resetting a new edge? Not sure, but do you think that's a possibility.

How much pressure are you applying with the stone arm? The pressure should be closer to sliding across the edge rather than pushing across the edge. Let the stones do their work

Third - H2O. Are you keeping the stones and knife (for me) wet? I've found when they start getting dry the knife can jump and get sticky going across the edge, this was the first thing that I thought of when read the above statement.

One of the things I like about the EP is it's pretty close to idiot proof, but sometimes even the best of us can get so caught up that taking a step back reanalyzing everything can work wonders.


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