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 Post subject: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:14 pm 
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Mark,

At the moment I use a BARE kangaroo strop as the last one. The finest grit spray I have is the diamond spray .25µ. Do you have an opinion of which micron spray or compound a bare kangaroo strop compares to? I seem to be getting the edge smoother using the bare kangaroo after the .25 on balsa or CBN .5 on leather or balsa. I'm wondering if some .1µ spray on nano-cloth would be considered a higher grit (lower micron) strop than a bare kangaroo strop. I'm trying to get as good an idea of what to use and when to use it to produce the best progression. Did I explain that understandably? I'm just recently getting into honing a straight razor (yes, for MY face) and need more info than I've been concerned with regarding sharpening my knives.


Sincerely,
Jack



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Hi Jack,

Hopefully some other guys will jump in and give you some opinions. For me I tend to like the balsa on slightly coarser compounds and especially with the pastes. I tend to like the kangaroo and nano on the finer sprays. So a typical progression would be something like this:

1 micron diamon on balsa
.5 micron on roo
.25 micron on roo
last strop on horse butt without compound.

You can experiment a little with combinations to dial in the edge you like.



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Bare leather probably has a grit rating of somewhere south (perhaps far south) of 0.25 micron.....best guess based on educated reading. I've never read a true study of it though....one done under microscope or some such. One might exist, but I've never ready.

So, I doubt that 0.1 micron spray on nano cloth is finer than bare leather.



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:24 pm 
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If we are getting into the straight razor world, following .25 micron with some .10 micron on nano cloth will make a difference, but for kitchen knives it's a bit ludicrous IMO. (I just re-read and saw that you ARE using this for a straight razor, so edit:) I personally do .25 micron on balsa, then .10 micron on nano cloth. If you want to finish with .25 micron you can, just remember to follow it with plain leather. Plain leather is going to be much finer than .25 on balsa. If you decide to go the .10 micron nano route, you can shave straight off that edge without leather, maybe strop it on your hand if you want.

For some silly reason I love to skip 1 micron (16k) altogether unless it is being used as my finisher for a toothy edge (aka 2k or 4k stone edge, then strop on 1 micron). Normally, if I'm going after a high refinement like that I will go from 8k stone edge straight to .5 micron strop, then .25 and .10.

Not sure what it is, but I never really benefit as much when I go from 8k stone to 1 micron strop; Not that it doesn't help, but the jump is rather small and a great 8k is already something to behold.

What is the finest stone you are using before getting into your stropping progression? I will back away as I'm sure I am about to get schooled by a couple of people on honing razors. I do okay, but I know Michiel, Jens, and Ken can probably teach me a thing or 2. :mrgreen:



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:18 pm 

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Knife Fanatic wrote:If we are getting into the straight razor world, following .25 micron with some .10 micron on nano cloth will make a difference, but for kitchen knives it's a bit ludicrous IMO. (I just re-read and saw that you ARE using this for a straight razor, so edit:) I personally do .25 micron on balsa, then .10 micron on nano cloth. If you want to finish with .25 micron you can, just remember to follow it with plain leather. Plain leather is going to be much finer than .25 on balsa. If you decide to go the .10 micron nano route, you can shave straight off that edge without leather, maybe strop it on your hand if you want.

For some silly reason I love to skip 1 micron (16k) altogether unless it is being used as my finisher for a toothy edge (aka 2k or 4k stone edge, then strop on 1 micron). Normally, if I'm going after a high refinement like that I will go from 8k stone edge straight to .5 micron strop, then .25 and .10.

Not sure what it is, but I never really benefit as much when I go from 8k stone to 1 micron strop; Not that it doesn't help, but the jump is rather small and a great 8k is already something to behold.

What is the finest stone you are using before getting into your stropping progression? I will back away as I'm sure I am about to get schooled by a couple of people on honing razors. I do okay, but I know Michiel, Jens, and Ken can probably teach me a thing or 2. :mrgreen:


Right now the finest grit bench stone I have is a Spyderco ceramic UF which is approx. 3 micron I believe. I'm getting a Shapton glass 8k bench stone in a two or three weeks. I have a set of Shapton glass stones for the EP up to 16k. I've used them on my razor but am really looking forward to the 8k bench stone. Using a 1" wide stone as a bench stone is doable (in a pinch) but I think its a pain. I'm hoping I can live with the 8k bench stone then strops and not need to get a 16k stone in the future.

I saw a video of a guy sharpening a razor on a conicle (I think that's right) stone and then stropped with a linen then a leather strop. That's all he uses I believe. He was obviously very skilled after doing this for several years judging by the speed he worked on the stone and strops both. Very fast. Obviously when learning it's best to focus on accuracy and just let the speed come naturally. I was just surprised at how simple he had reduced his tools and procedure to. I'm assuming the results were good. He did talk about using the hanging hair test and seemed to be very familiar with using it. He said the best "test" of a straight razor's edge is shaving with it..

Jack


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 Post subject: Re: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:50 pm 
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Not to add too much here before someone else adds to this:

I'm not the greatest razor honer in the world, but I know what works for me. So that being said, if you ever decide to go the 16k full stone route, for straight razors I find the 15k Pro to be a little more forgiving than the Glass. Otherwise a good 8k finish plus strops is great IMO.



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:17 am 
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Well it's a bit more complicated :) It always is ...

So there are fine silicates in leather. The Kangaroo is finer than horse or cow, so in terms of a final strop, a kangaroo strop is the finest strop in terms of abrasives present in a strop. But the abrasive is silicates, which are far less aggressive than CBN or Poly Diamond so there is an issue of the character of the abrasive, not just the grit.

Nanocloth has no grit. None. Nada. So it is, for the purposes of this discussion of infinitely fine grit. In fact if you strop on it with a metal razor you don't detect any metal swarf. Yet if you put even a light spray of the 0.025 poly - the finest abrasive available - you will get metal swarf removal. So this is the finest strop in terms of abrasive effect alone.

But leather has yet another characteristic - draw or pull. This acts somewhat as a burnishing component towards edge formation, unlike nanocloth. If you follow a strop with nanocloth or Kangaroo with compound less than tenth micron after using an unloaded kangaroo strop with a third strop with compound approximately tenth micron or finer, you will notice a marked improvement of the edge in short order. Read that last sentence again - it is a bit hard to follow. The rate of abrasion of these ultrafine compounds is both FAR finer and far faster than the effect you get from just the Kangaroo alone. For this reason I use a Kangaroo strop with 0.025 poly as my final touchup before shaving. Indeed you can perceive a difference in the draw of the razor on the 0.025 poly Kangaroo strop after just a few strokes. This is probably from removing some slight metal oxidation produced between uses of the razor - even after thorough drying.

Nanocloth has a far greater range than most people expect among the coarse grits. I successfully use nanocloth with grits as coarse as 80 micron CBN compounds. Purely from a perspective of function, nanocloth is the most versatile material around, giving you a pure compound effect from 80 microns down to 0.025 microns. For this reason, I rarely use balsa anymore.

Beyond 80 microns - e.g. at 200 and 300 microns, I suggest using a coarse stone which hold these hugh particles in place better than a conventional strop. Here consider the Nubatama stones below 150 grit for this function - particularly on abrasion resistant steels.

---
Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:24 pm 

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ken123 wrote:Well it's a bit more complicated :) It always is ...

So there are fine silicates in leather. The Kangaroo is finer than horse or cow, so in terms of a final strop, a kangaroo strop is the finest strop in terms of abrasives present in a strop. But the abrasive is silicates, which are far less aggressive than CBN or Poly Diamond so there is an issue of the character of the abrasive, not just the grit.

Nanocloth has no grit. None. Nada. So it is, for the purposes of this discussion of infinitely fine grit. In fact if you strop on it with a metal razor you don't detect any metal swarf. Yet if you put even a light spray of the 0.025 poly - the finest abrasive available - you will get metal swarf removal. So this is the finest strop in terms of abrasive effect alone.

But leather has yet another characteristic - draw or pull. This acts somewhat as a burnishing component towards edge formation, unlike nanocloth. If you follow a strop with nanocloth or Kangaroo with compound less than tenth micron after using an unloaded kangaroo strop with a third strop with compound approximately tenth micron or finer, you will notice a marked improvement of the edge in short order. Read that last sentence again - it is a bit hard to follow. The rate of abrasion of these ultrafine compounds is both FAR finer and far faster than the effect you get from just the Kangaroo alone. For this reason I use a Kangaroo strop with 0.025 poly as my final touchup before shaving. Indeed you can perceive a difference in the draw of the razor on the 0.025 poly Kangaroo strop after just a few strokes. This is probably from removing some slight metal oxidation produced between uses of the razor - even after thorough drying.

Nanocloth has a far greater range than most people expect among the coarse grits. I successfully use nanocloth with grits as coarse as 80 micron CBN compounds. Purely from a perspective of function, nanocloth is the most versatile material around, giving you a pure compound effect from 80 microns down to 0.025 microns. For this reason, I rarely use balsa anymore.

Beyond 80 microns - e.g. at 200 and 300 microns, I suggest using a coarse stone which hold these hugh particles in place better than a conventional strop. Here consider the Nubatama stones below 150 grit for this function - particularly on abrasion resistant steels.

---
Ken


Here's an example of what I'd buy if I understand the sentence you made me read again (and again it turns out :)).

I have a nano-cloth with .5CBN
I have a nano-cloth ordered and I'll use .25 diamond spray I already have on it when the strop arrives.
I have a bare roo strop.

Now I should get what's below and use them in the order listed if I wanted to go to the lowest grit available.

.25 diamond spray on nano-cloth strop that I will have in a day or two.
New .1 CBN on a new nano-cloth strop
Bare roo that I already have.
New .05 poly on a new nano-cloth strop.
New .025 poly on a new nano-cloth strop.

Just going by microns it looks like the roo could be eliminated. But you indicated the draw or pull adds to the progression if I get it correctly.

You have a .1 CBN and also a .1 poly. Is there a difference in performance between CBN and poly? Other than that I would need poly to go below .1 micron according to what you have listed.

Am I understanding this correctly? If not what am I missing?

Thanks for your help and thanks to everyone for your help as well.


Jack


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 Post subject: Re: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:12 pm 
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Im gonna throw another wrench in the gears here (your progression looks very good btw).

But its always been my understanding that mono while less aggresive then poly produces a smoother edge of the edge given an identical micron size. This has always lead me to believe that mono might be more suited to straight razor honers?

Fwiw i have not directly compared the two yet as i havent gotten a progression of mono from ken........

Yet........

;)



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping opinions.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:27 pm 
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I really think you should try some .10 micron on nanocloth to finish (even if it's before plain roo). To me, that is the most noticeable improvement after .25 micron and produces an incredibly good edge. Going beyond .10 micron starts getting crazy, even for razors. I've had one honed up like that before and it was literally almost too sharp to use. :twisted: (Thanks Jens) :twisted: My face had a dull pain for hours after, though there was no sign of razor burn whatsoever ...... ...



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