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 Post subject: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:19 am
Posts: 313
Hello, I'm just getting into the world of better knives and would like to upgrade my knifes. I have been doing some reading here on the forums and see what looks like a lot of fantastic knives. To start I'm looking to get a 240 Gyuto and a Petty in the 135-150 range.

I see the Tojiro DP, Fujiwara and Richmond Artifex knives recommended a lot as a introduction into Japanese knives and a good knife for the value. So I have no doubt there all good knives. My question is what would be the knifes you would recommend on here as far as being one step up from these knives? I'm not looking for the absolute top of the line, but something maybe a step up from these quality entry level knifes.

1. Are you right handed? YES
2. What type of knife are you interested in (gyuto, nakiri etc..) Gyuto and Petty (for now)
3. What size knife are you looking for? 240 Gyuto and a 135-150 Petty
4. Do you prefer carbon or stainless steel? I'm not sure here, I like the idea of stainless, but the carbons with all the patina from use look nice too, as far as performance, I'm not sure which one is better.
5. Do you prefer a western handle or a Japanese handle? I have always used Western handles, but I am not opposed to Japanese.
6. How much did you want to spend? $100-200 on the Gyuto and around $100 on the Petty.
7. Do you know how to sharpen? I have sharpen knives in the past, and I have recently picked up an edge Pro with a variety of stones and strops. So I'm confident that while I am learning I will be able to sharpen decent as time goes on.

Thanks for your input.

Hutch


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 Post subject: Re: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:06 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:11 pm
Posts: 220
Location: San Diego
I will focus on western grip gyutos, since I recently did a search and purchase here and the info is fresh in my mind. Hopefully others will chime in about wa handles.

Close to the top of your list of gyuto, in western grip, are the Mac Pro and Masamoto VG. Lower, people love the Fuji and the Tojiro gets good marks. The Fujis come in either carbon or stainless. The Richmond Artiflex is a killer SS blade for a smoking good price. The Tojiro DP is VG-10 (stainless) core clad with softer stainless. The MP, MVG and Fuji also use stainless, although I think the alloys are proprietary so we don't know the exact type. The MP and MVG are pretty similar - slightly different grip shapes, MP has wood handle, MVG POM (molded plastic or resin, can't remember, but it wont shrink), MVG a bit heavier, MP has graphics that some don't like (but you can buff out). I personally went with the MVG because of the additional weight and better aesthetics. In truth, either would have been great. The Richmond Artifex is a great blade in AEB-L stainless, but are a bit light (and I surmised somewhat more flexible than the MVG) for my taste which is why I didn't go that way. I have an Artifex petty and I really like the AEB-L - sharpens really easily (for SS) and can hold a very good edge for a long time. I was impressed. In a gyuto, it will be great.

All those lines have matching pettys around your desired size and price points. With pettys, decide what you intend to do with them. If you intend to do fine chopping, like mincing herbs or slicing garlic, might want to look towards a petty with a decent heel height (i.e. blade height).


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 Post subject: Re: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
Closer to your mid-range on the gyuto is the Suisin Inox (stainless): http://www.chefknivestogo.com/suisingyuto1.html

Closer to your upper range the Kohetsu (stainless clad carbon): http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rikoaosu24gy.html

The Suisin should be a definite step-up with excellent fit and finish (and a great looking handle! lol), and the Kohetsu is a real performer considered to be a great bang-for-the-buck knife with a "professional" level quality of steel.

Both also offer petty knives in/around your price range as well:
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/suinpe15.html
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/koaosupe15.html

For some real lookers, Sakai Takayuki has some nice offerings as well:
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/satadagy240.html
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/satadape150.html

I can't speak to their performance vs. Tojiro, Fujiwara, or the Artifex, but they have a better steel than the Tojiro and Fujiwara (same steel as the Artifex) and they look absolutely gorgeous. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:22 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:00 am
Posts: 649
I won't really talk about petty's I really don't have anywhere near the knowledge these other guys do. However I do know a fair bit about Gyutos.

So first off you have an EP. This is a good sign that you are willing to take good care of your stuff which means carbon steel is a good option. Carbon steel has the ability to take a steeper edge than SS at the same price point.

A japanese handle is a good option as usually they are cheaper which brings down the overall cost of the knife.

I would highly recommend you stick to the higher end of your budget for the gyuto as the performance increases are worth it.

All this being said. I would highly recommend these choices.

Richmond SLD: Uses the same steel as Konosuke HD, what a steel! I don't own one of these but I have used one and it's pure pleasure.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/koadhd24wa.html

Kohetsu AS Gyuto: This uses Aogami super steel which is reactive but takes on a beautiful patina, it also takes a wicked edge and holds it. I have the 210mm version of this knife and I adore it.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rikoaosu24gy.html

Also anything from the maker Masakage is wonderful. You'll be able to find gyuto's above and below your price range.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/masakageknives.html

That's my $0.02

This being said you can't go wrong with any product on the site, I'd shy away from the popular brand names of Global, wusthof, Henkels and Shun though as you pay for the name versus the product.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
Lunatic wrote:Also anything from the maker Masakage is wonderful. You'll be able to find gyuto's above and below your price range.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/masakageknives.html


The Mizu line is a really nice looking option in your price range: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/mamigy24.html

However if you can justify going a little over your budget, the Yuki line would be what I would buy: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/mayugy24.html

It's an absolutely stunning knife, and on my "short list" of things to buy. lol


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 Post subject: Re: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:06 pm
Posts: 211
The Richmond sld uses sld steel, not hd steel. There used to be an addict profiled gyuto in hd steel, but it was replaced by the sld, for far less money. It is made by konosuke, and as far as I can tell sld is a well regarded steel. But it isn't hd.

I'm not sure what has given the indication that wa handled knives are cheaper, almost all of the budget options are western handled.

I would add that the tanaka ginsan may be an option. http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tagigy24.html
I have not used it, but I want one. Tanakas generally have a good reputation, ginsan is a great stainless, and the pictures released make it look like it has a very good grind. But again, haven't used it.

You have some options, and likely will enjoy the end result.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:16 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:48 pm
Posts: 169
I don't think he said wa handled knives are cheaper, he said wa handles are cheaper. IE if u had 2 knives made from the same steel by the same blacksmith a wa handled version would be cheaper than western


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 Post subject: Re: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:06 pm
Posts: 211
I just don't see this play out in practice. When yo handled konosuke hds were available they were the same price. Gesshin gingas are available in both for the same. The tojiro dps that were wa were the same price. Grand cheff wa's are more expensive than yos.

Either way, OP, there are many great options for gyutos under 200. People have listed many good ones, you'll likely be wowed by any of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:00 am
Posts: 649
As far as I've seen to get a good Western handle with nice F&F you need to anti up quite a bit of cash. However to get a knife with a good Wa handle with excellent F&F is not hard to find for a modest amount of money. Is it a concrete fact? No, not by any means.

I was wrong to assume it's the HD steel Konosuke uses. However it is made by Konosuke with a semi stainless steel. They have the same HRC of 61, given the SLD is a taller knife they weigh the same amount. I'd say the steel is virtually the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyuto recommendation please
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:44 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:20 am
Posts: 1721
Hutch, a few points:

1) Carbon vs stainless: obviously one oxidizes, the other tends not to. Typically, a carbon steel will sharpen quicker and with less work and take a keener edge than a comparably priced stainless. This is less true than it used to be, but there is a kernel of truth to it. To get the best of both worlds, many carbon steel knives are clad in either stainless steel or finished with somehow to decrease reactivity, they are nice compromises. Knives like the Kohetsu and Goko, both strong contenders and highly recommended for your use, are built this way. Another compromise are semi-stainless steels which split the difference in chemical composition, they have considerable stain resistance, but lack enough chromium to be considered stainless. Knives like the Richmond Addict SLD and Kikuichi TKC are examples of these, I have not used either of these, but they are well thought of knives.

2) Wa vs Yo (Western handled) knives: You are undoubtedly familiar with western handled cutlery. Wa, or Japanese, handles are overall lighter, and balanced more toward the blade than their western counterparts. Most people transition easily and enjoy the lighter overall weight of the Wa-handles. Because the balance point is moved forward, the transition is easier if you use a pinch grip, rather than gripping the handle with all five fingers. In general this is a personal preference. They are often preferred on this forum for their character.

3) There is a tenuous consensus on the forum that the Tojiro DP, Fujiwara FKM/FKH, Richmond Artifex line are best-buys in their price range and you have to move a step higher in the price range to see much increase in performance, at least proportionate to the cost. For example, the Kohetsu, Goko, and Addict SLD are all in the upper half of your stated price range, and the Kikuichi is above it. So it you are leaning toward the $100 price for a gyuto, look hard at those three, if you are comfortable with the ~$200, then keep shopping, there are some fun things there.

Hope this helps!


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