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 Post subject: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:07 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:27 pm
Posts: 32
this is a real newbie question, but what does the phrase "great grinds" mean. Mark uses this a lot in descriptions of preferred knives. I would figure that most competent knife manufacturers could put whatever geometry they wanted on whatever knife they want. Why doesn't every knife that CKTG sells have "great grinds". Better steels cost money. Heat treatment is an art. I would think knife geometry isn't .

What am I missing?

thanks,
Danny


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 Post subject: Re: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:11 pm 
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DANNY <> A means to an end is proprietary. Do you have a favorite item at a restaurant because they do it like no one other? Everyone starts with a knife that needs to be ground down from spine to edge or just the bevel ground or whatever depending on knife & maker. The nuance of that travel is what makes each makers' grind their own...



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 Post subject: Re: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:24 am
Posts: 304
The term "great grinds" suddenly appeared around here once another forum bashed CKtG for having knives with grind issues. Since then, "good grind" has been thrown around just as loosely as the term "laser."

"Why doesnt every knife that CKTG sells have 'great grinds'?"

Because not every Japanese knife has a great grind.

It takes time, testing, and experience to weed out the so-so knives.

Mowgs


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 Post subject: Re: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Location: Madison Wisconsin
Grinding a knife by hand is a very technical skill and some knife makers are expert at it and others are just so so. But a descently ground knife at a good price can still be a worthwhile and enjoyable purchase.

Same goes for steel. Not every steel is equal. We sell some cheap carbon steels like cck cleavers that don't hold a candle to some of the top knife steels today but they're still cheap and fun to use.

Same with edge sharpness out of the box.

Same with handle shape and material.



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 Post subject: Re: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:09 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:20 am
Posts: 1721
Preferences in geometries differ from person to person. Some people are more concerned with food release, others wedging, others want beefy edges, others more delicate ones. The makers produce a variety of geometries partially to meet demand.

Grind also is a point of distinction between price points. Some entry level knives have similar steel to more costly counterparts, but sacrifice labor costs on grind to keep costs low. Some of these are salvageable with an hour or two and a coarse stone, others are either as-is or need a belt grinder to get them to where the "could" be.

A good number of members here buy knives with known grind issues as project knives just to play "Jr Knifemaker" on. I have three right now in various stages of makeover. The one I am currently working on is being polished up after time on a belt grinder and is likely destined for a wa-handle conversion. Ultimately, there is no cost savings to do it this way. If you factor in the value of your time, the cost of materials, etc you may as well spend another $50 and get a better ground/finished knife, but then most here have a fever.... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:23 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:27 pm
Posts: 32
thanks for the great responses. I could well imagine that getting a knife super thin is a special skill. Are great grinds subjective then? Is my great grind (say super thin) is somebody elses dog, because they like the feel of a heavier knife, etc?


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 Post subject: Re: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:23 pm 
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shevitz wrote:I could well imagine that getting a knife super thin is a special skill. Are great grinds subjective then? Is my great grind (say super thin) is somebody elses dog, because they like the feel of a heavier knife, etc?
In simple terms, exactly. Some where along the linear line from super thin to super thick lies each individuals ideal knife.

It's not quite easy, though... Where the curve on the side of the blade takes place(higher or lower), shape of curve, type of finish/cladding, amount of distal tape, where the distal starts, tip thickness/shape/height, shoulder thickness, spine thickness and much more. Each aspect has it's own impact on how the knife cuts/feels. The pursuit of the perfect knife is never ending, but man alive is it a fun journey :D


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 Post subject: Re: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:48 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:33 pm
Posts: 105
"Great" info. It helps in understanding the reviews better. I always preferred the more descriptive terms like those regarding wedging, food release, etc in reviews. The general "great grind" I always interpreted as more of a personal opinion than knife quality. This helps put that in perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:44 pm 
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A great grind is one that makes cutting close to effortless in a variety of foods. Thin doesn't always mean great! Great also means few to no high/lows/dips/ripples in either side of the blade where the blade was ground. Many Kurouchi knives have OK grinds where they have a lot of little ripples and blips. Takeda are an exception; the blade roads on the Takeda's are very flat and cleanly done. A great grind both looks good (consistent and clean grinds) and performs awesomely!

Some not so great grinds will have ripples in the blade road, uneven blade road grind (ie, the blade grind at the edge is thicker at the tip instead of thinner) or part of the blade road are ground differently, the edge profile is choppy, etc. These usually can be fixed by cleaning up the blade road, but many knives just have nicer/cleaner grinds OOTB than other knives do. Many Japanese knives are ground on large diameter stone wheels, so the bevels can be concaved a bit (hollow ground), so they aren't as flat as they look. Some makers flatten and clean up these bevels, others do less cleanup and the bead blasting kasumi finish covers this unevenness until someone put the blade road to a stone and finds there are several areas that the stone isn't touching along the blade. It takes a lot more time and cost to clean up a bevel, so the great grind knives are often the more expensive ones that have had more finish work done to the blade road.


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 Post subject: Re: what does great grinds mean?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:24 am
Posts: 304
taz575 wrote:A great grind is one that makes cutting close to effortless in a variety of foods. Thin doesn't always mean great! Great also means few to no high/lows/dips/ripples in either side of the blade where the blade was ground. Many Kurouchi knives have OK grinds where they have a lot of little ripples and blips. Takeda are an exception; the blade roads on the Takeda's are very flat and cleanly done. A great grind both looks good (consistent and clean grinds) and performs awesomely!

Some not so great grinds will have ripples in the blade road, uneven blade road grind (ie, the blade grind at the edge is thicker at the tip instead of thinner) or part of the blade road are ground differently, the edge profile is choppy, etc. These usually can be fixed by cleaning up the blade road, but many knives just have nicer/cleaner grinds OOTB than other knives do. Many Japanese knives are ground on large diameter stone wheels, so the bevels can be concaved a bit (hollow ground), so they aren't as flat as they look. Some makers flatten and clean up these bevels, others do less cleanup and the bead blasting kasumi finish covers this unevenness until someone put the blade road to a stone and finds there are several areas that the stone isn't touching along the blade. It takes a lot more time and cost to clean up a bevel, so the great grind knives are often the more expensive ones that have had more finish work done to the blade road.


Well said Tim!


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