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 Post subject: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:52 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:08 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Raleigh, NC
I just got an Edge Pro Apex. I have a couple of Japanese knives that I want to sharpen at 15 degrees per side. I read today that Japanese knives have a geometry of 4 degrees, so I would need to set the Edge Pro angle to 17 degrees to get the 15 I'm looking for. Is that correct?

If so, what about sharpening folders? How do I know what angle edge I'm actually applying?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:06 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:00 pm
Posts: 54
Location: South Carolina
If you insist on applying a predetermined angle to a knife, I'd recommend you use an angle cube and a drill collar stop. The second of the 3 videos on the angle cube product page will clearly demonstrate how it all will work together. (Links below)

Alternately, if you wished to sharpen at the factory applied edge angle, you could use the marker "trick." That is, apply a marker to the edge road of the knife. With a finishing stone mounted in the Edge Pro, apply a light stroke and then see where the stone is making contact with the knife edge and adjust the angle accordingly.
(Marker removed from the shoulder, but still present at the cutting edge, then increase the angle/raise the EP guide rod, if the marker is removed at the edge but still visible behind the edge, flatten the angle a tick/lower the EP guide rod.)

Even if you decide to not acquire the Angle Cube, the collar stop is a great addition, because once you use the marker and get the EP set to the desired angle, you then lock the Drill Stop Collar and your entire stone progression will be at the correct angle irrespective of their relative thicknesses.

Angle Cube
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/anglecube.html

Drill stop collar
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/5drstcowhexk.html

With respect to the 4 degrees on the knives....
If I am understanding your question, you are referring to the angle of the grind on the knife from the spine down to the edge road itself and its impact on your applied angle.
The angle cube can resolve that for you. Instead of zeroing the cube as it sits on the EP "table" simply place the knife on the EP and zero the angle cube on the knife itself.
(Take care, so as to not accidentally scuff the knife. For purposes of zeroing, you could simply apply some painter's tape to the knife or the angle cube.)


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:46 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:08 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Raleigh, NC
Thanks, joefriday. I have both the angle cube and drill stop collar. Based on my reading to date, I thought I had a good understanding of what I needed to do...until I read the following from the Sharpening Konosuke with EP thread.

"The geometry of a Japanese knife is approx. 4 degrees. A thicker knife like the Germans have a geometry of approx. 6 degrees.

This means that when you set your angle, using an angle cube of course, you would subtract 1/2 the angle of the knife
to find out what the actual angle you are sharpening the edge to.
i.e. You want to sharpen a gyuto to 15 degrees per side. You would set the rod height to 17 degrees. 17* minus 2*= your desired 15* edge."

I thought the angle, as measured by the angle cube, would actually be the angle I was applying. Now I'm not so sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:00 pm
Posts: 54
Location: South Carolina
Your concern is well-founded.
If you zero the angle cube on the EP itself and then set the angle of the guide rod/stone to the surface of the EP table, that angle will not remain constant once a knife is put in place.

If you put a knife in place for zeroing and setting the EP angle, you will be fine - the angle "change" (due to knife thickness and grind) will already be accounted for in your setup.


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:08 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Raleigh, NC
Makes sense. I hadn't seen that mentioned in my research or in any of the videos I watched. Just trying to make sure I know what angles I'm putting on my knives so they are repeatable. Thanks for the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:01 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:42 pm
Posts: 460
Location: Connecticut
Joe;

Thanks for clearing up that when setting the sharpening angle one should set the angle
with the knife on the table.

When I wrote what the OP quoted, I had been using the EP for some years and took a certain level
of knowledge for granted on the readers part forgetting the learning curve I went through.


Douglas


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:03 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:08 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Raleigh, NC
No worries, Douglas. I'm just starting out with the Edge Pro, but I'm glad I found a place with a ton of knowledge where I can ask the noob questions. If I hadn't read what you posted the first time, I would have been setting the angles incorrectly and wouldn't have known the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:16 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:22 pm
Posts: 1501
Well dv/dt, you're gonna get a lot of great info here. Unfortunately for you, some of it may be contradictory.

When I want to put on an accurate bevel angle, I place the blade on a flat surface, zero the Angle Cube on that surface, and then measure the included angle of the knife grind and divide by 2. I then add that number to the desired bevel angle. Place the knife on the blade table and set the EP to that number with the Angle Cube zeroed on the table.

Zeroing on the blade gives you angle off the grind, not angle from centerline.

Now, after all of that, I just don't own any Japanese knives with significant included angles. My monosteel lasers are so thin that it isn't worth worrying about. And my san-mai knives all have a nice slab side which I keep on the blade table so there's nothing to worry about there either. Add in the fact that any knife is going to have some washout where the included bevel changes along the length of the edge, and I see this as more of an academic pursuit. So for Japanese knives, I just set the EP to the angle I want. I DO compensate for the included bevel for thicker Western cutlery, but I don't obsess about it.

WRT sharpening to the factory edge, it isn't going to happen with the EP, at least not in stock form. There are too many angular dynamics going on to allow it. The Mad Rookie mod that Sharp Knives made available that replaces the mech with a Heim joint gives you a better shot at it, but you need to face the fact that it's your knife now and you are going to put your own unique edge on it. Which, for Japanese knives in good shape, means starting with and taking some time with a Shapton 1K. All worth it in the end.

Cheers,

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:20 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:00 pm
Posts: 54
Location: South Carolina
Tall Dark and Swarfy wrote:Zeroing on the blade gives you angle off the grind, not angle from centerline.

Rick, you are absolutely right.
dv/dt, without thinking, I led you astray. You asked a general question about getting the angle and I replied based upon a habit I had gotten into with the laser ground knives.
I neglected this fact, and in so doing, offered an erroneous guide.
And, Rick's observation about thin knives is right at the core of it. I got in the habit of sharpening lasers like that.

Follow Rick's advice about measuring the grind on the knife on a flat surface and utilizing half that value to adjust the guide rod angle.
Again, my apologies for confusing the issue and big thanks to Rick for ever so gently pointing out my error.


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Pro Angles
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:08 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Raleigh, NC
There is obviously a lot to this, which is exactly why I'm asking so many questions. I want to make sure I'm doing things correctly, and I don't want to ruin a knife. Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate the help.


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