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 Post subject: Sharpening a UX10 with an Edge Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Location: Madison Wisconsin
Hi Susan,

Have a question for you about the Edge Pro Apex I just bought from you.

Misono (UX10) recommends 11 degrees on one side and 15 degrees on the other. How would you implement this if you were using 500, 1000 and 6000 grit stones? e.g. sharpen one side at 11 degrees with 500 then switch to 15 degrees for the other side then switch back to 11 degrees etc till done with 500 then repeat for 1000 and 6000 or ? I asked the Edge Pro people and they said to do it all at 15 degrees - not sure I want to do that.

Thanks for your help.....Chris



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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening a UX10 with an Edge Pro
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Hi Chris,

I agree with Ben from Edge Pro. Pick and angle you want the knife edge to be at and sharpen both sides at that angle. When I had a UX10 I sharpened it multiple times with my Edge Pro and I did both sides at 12 degrees. It's much less hassle compared to constantly adjusting the angle of the machine each time you switch sides.



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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening a UX10 with an Edge Pro
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:19 am 

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 am
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Location: Amstelveen, The Netherlands
I'm not so sure it's a great idea to put a symmetric edge on an essentially asymmetric blade like the Misono. Unless you send it in every year or so to have the geometry corrected.


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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening a UX10 with an Edge Pro
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:03 am 
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So the original grind is typically a convex edge on one side (R) and a flat grind on the other side. While a convex grind isn't really required, preserving the asymmetry is a good idea.

The solution when using an EP OR freehand is simple - keep the SAME angle on both sides BUT grind mostly on the right side and just a little bit on the left side. This is all that is required. You control asymmetry by the amount of grinding done on each side.

You will find this simple concept confused by so called 'experts' who simply don't understand basic geometry and will say you need different angles on each side. I can explain this in more detail if anyone is interested.

You can use whatever angle you wish (same angle on both sides). The more acute the angle the more delicate the edge but the more easily it will penetrate what you are cutting. For a UX10 steel, try Misono's suggestion of 11+15 degrees or 26 degrees inclusive, by converting this to 13 per side or go a pinch more acute.

This is EXACTLY what Mark recommends :) Nice work!!!

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Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening a UX10 with an Edge Pro
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:30 am 

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 am
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Location: Amstelveen, The Netherlands
Dear Ken,
Regarding these equal angles on unequal bevels: the friction on the left side will be much lower than on the right one, as the right one is 2-3 times larger. This must lead to steering. The traditional way to compensate is to increase the left angle, so increasing the friction.
Would be an good idea to add a microbevel on the left side?
Thanks for your time, Bernard


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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening a UX10 with an Edge Pro
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:44 am 
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Bernard,

The idea is that by grinding more on one side or the other you change the asymmetry ratio. This ratio is defined by the ratio of bevel widths on the two sides. The issue is not one of friction but where the edge is located relative to the knife's shape. If the knife is 50/50 the edge should be centered. If the knife is off centered, the edge should be equally off centered. If not the knife will 'steer'. It is an issue of lining up force of the knife downstroke with the knife's bias.

So changing angles on the two sides is an independent issue. Thus you could have a more - or less acute angle on either the large or small bevel. Indeed one could have a 100/0 grind and put a very small microbevel on the other side at the same angle getting a 90/10 style of bevel. If this were not the case you could never make a thinned knife and preserve the asymmetry with more acute angles.

Feel free to ask more questions if you want to have more explanation. It would probably be useful to many others who don't get the concept.

There has been SOO much misinformation on this topic that it is hard to get this concept corrected.

I did a video discussing this.





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Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening a UX10 with an Edge Pro
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:03 am
Posts: 190
This is a very good point by Ken! Works also very nicely if you use a guided angle system.

OP: how do you like the steel of the Misono? I read very mixed reviews of UX-10. Some people say it is like 19C27 and is very easy to sharpen and takes a keen edge. Others say it is relatively hard to sharpen and does not take a keen edge...

What are your experiences?


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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening a UX10 with an Edge Pro
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:51 pm 

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:14 am
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Location: Florida, USA, Earth
Take a knife blade that has a grind (spine to edge) that is the same on each side. Sharpen both sides at the same angle and when you are done the bevels are the same width. The edge is now in the center of the blade from side to side of the blade. I understand this.

Then you sharpen the blade using strokes ONLY on one side at the same original angle. The actual edge will slowly move over and over until eventually one bevel will be twice as wide as the other. Keep sharpening the same side and eventually you will have a chisel edge. I understand this.

Sharpen one side at 10° and the other at 20° and you would have the same inclusive angle at the edge is 15° per side. I understand this.

A knife with a chisel edge will try to cut through a big ham and curve instead of going straight down. I think of the beveled side as a boat rudder. I can see where this could be a feature one might prefer depending on being right handed or left. Or maybe which side of the ham you are cutting. Would you want the knife to try to cut the slice thicker or thinner? That would determine which side you would want beveled. Or could you just turn the ham around? :) I think I understand this but have never cut with a chisel edge on food.

If I wanted to I could sharpen a knife with a flat bevel on one side and convex bevel on the other. I understand this as well.

All of this I understand (I'm pretty sure) and have done most of it if you include my chisel set. I have corrected many edges with different angles on each side, off center edge, etc.

Here is where I'd like explanation. WHY would any of this matter (except the totally chisel edge)? Would this be only for the kitchen (and why)? Would any of this apply to chopping competitions? Would a lumberjack care about it? Why would it matter on my pocket knife? If so much thought and effort has gone into dealing with this subject there must be a practical benefit. AND, do people pay people (professional sharpeners) to sharpen their knives to specific edges like this?

If I get an answer to this issue I hope I'm not compelled to reprofile every knife in my house! :o :shock: :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening a UX10 with an Edge Pro
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:11 am 
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So this is a matter of degree. BOTTOM line - if your knife is cutting straight or straight enough to meet your food cutting needs, Leave it alone (sigh of relief).

So, in the extreme, an usuba is a specialized single bevel vegetable cutter. Try cutting a cantaloupe with it. You will get a slice that looks like a half moon. Horrible. If you are cutting green onions from the end - wonderful! Cutting a carrot in the middle - it will split. Cutting thin sheets of veggies like daikon (katsurumuki) - heavenly.

Now take a nakiri with a symmetric edge. Also a veggy knife. No tracking. Uniform thin slices, no wedging. Thin sheets - not so good (but doable).

Now if you dont take that usuba straight down but 'cant' it to the side and twist it during the cut -less arcing, but a pita.

Now for axes, you want to split it. Single bevels tend to be more acute - half a 'v'.

Chopping competitions? Not sure but my guess is that a thinner edge wouldn't help Robustness is paramount.

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Ken



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