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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:59 am 
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Posts: 983
Joe, Thanks kindly for the tip about the traced diagram, I will draw it up and see if it influences the result in an impactful way.

As for the comparison between the knives, I don't claim to be "right" in saying one is any better than the other, honestly, the TF is brand spanking new to me and I have about ten total cutting hours on it right now. I sharpened through and entire progression to grind off the factory edge because I didn't trust it not to chip. I will say TF was ferociously sharp OOTB, far and away the sharpest factory edge I have ever gotten. It is also acutely beveled, conservatively, I guess 10 degrees, but maybe even as acute as 8. I used it to peel and cut a pineapple before sharpening it and didn't get any noticeable chips. I have done some menial prep with it, onions and the like, the edge retention was good for W#1, but I thought to myself, so is my Goko, for W#1. Then my mind floated to forum members finding them similar knives. I have a lot more time on the Goko and so far, they ARE similar in sharpness, and cutting performance, but my Goko has a much different profile.


On an off note, perhaps the thread should be moved to reviews now, because it is taking that slant, decidedly.


{mod note:melampus moved thread to appropriate subforum}



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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:36 am 

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Dan, gotta say I love the lack of ego associated with your commentary and nature of comparisons. You are very unbiased in your assessments and don't view each knife you've bought as a metallurgical Baby Jebus. Good stuff.



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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:47 am 
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Thanks Dan. Great write up and pics. I also agree the difference in hand made knives can be profound from one example to the next.


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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:01 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:57 pm
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Ok, so here is a tracing of my white #1 Goko and blue #2 Anryu on top of each other. I tried to align the heels of both blades to start at the same spot for a close comparison of overall profile.

Image

The Anryu as expected is flatter, with more of a sheep's-foot tip. From this representation my Goko does not look quite as narrow and pointed as Dan's. Also note my Goko is a few millimeters longer than my Anryu (245 vs. 242). The Goko's tracing does not show it clearly but it has a slight recurve at the heel, while the Anryu is closer to having a hard stop.

Since this is already a bit off topic I'll just take it a touch further. Since I was tracing I had to put my two Gokos (white #1 and stainless damascus) next to each other.

Image

As I said in another thread recently, their blade profiles on the board are practically identical. Height and machi/emoto differences, along with a degree of inaccuracy in my placement, make the tracings look more different than they are. The actual differences are in the spine, which stays flatter longer on the stainless.


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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:30 pm 
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First, with all this talk about "right & wrong" or "better than", I want to say I, for one, did not interpret your review as righteous.

I personally enjoy all 3 knives in this discussion, and although I was shocked at how much I enjoyed the Goko W#1 <--link, I feel comparing it in an equivocal context to the Teruyasu <--link is laughable. If you felt the Teruyasu wasn't $320 "better", I could jump on board with that premise - not agree - yet I could understand, but to call them basically even, I can't agree. A comment like, "similar in sharpness". Well, of course sharpening two knives to equal angles with equal stones in equal environments will yield similar sharpness. Apparently, you are of the opinion the Goko can retain that edge as long as the Teruyasu. We'll have to agree to disagree because I strongly disagree, and that "strongly" is as resolute & absolute as I am absolutely clear 'tis I typing these words. I do agree edge retention on the Goko W#1 was exactly what I expected out of W#1 @Hrc60 - far from "outstanding" as yours is in your opinion, but the edge retention on my Teruyasu is consistently stellar... repeatedly, shockingly, & surprisingly stellar for W#1. Now, obviously your edge & my edge are different edges so comparisons are not apples to apples, and I can suppose that if I put equally obtuse edges on both blades, they may very well exhibit similar retention. I can't fathom how, but I'm grasping at straws to explain the disparity in our experiences. I sharpen acutely, somewhere in the 11 degree range, and the Goko could not hold it an entire day w/o requiring stropping to keep a keen razor. My Teruyasu can go a solid two entire days before requiring a touchup... that's 100% longer.. to achieve equal edge degradation. Furthermore, the Teruyasu's OOTB edge left me w/o even the faintest of concern regarding it's durability as its incredulously hardy edge was directly attributable to the visibly perfect convex edge. I don't mean "convex grind" per`se; I mean convex edge. The convex rolled perfectly from the shoulder all the way to the edge of the edge... just like a sword. That allowed a robustness that was seemingly tempered from acting thick behind the edge because of the perfect convex geometry coming up off the edge which afforded a durability that floored me from the OOTB edge. I remember when the edge of the edge started microchipping; I rode through it a shift till it evened itself out & then with just 2k touchups it came right back to life. IIRC, I put the stock bevels through a month of hard holiday use before I had to run it through a full progression. I mean my knife has been nothing short of supernatural as has been represented in my comments since day 1.

Moving on to cutting performance. Again, I find it extremely hard to understand how the knives we each used were so drastically different from one another, but they clearly must be because for me to had compared the Goko's cutting performance as equal to the Teruyasu's, as your two examples apparently were, would had been so preposterous I don't think anyone using the same two knives that I used could had ever trusted another word out of my mouth. The 240 W#1 Goko I tested was a fun knife that performed well above the standard I expected from a sub $200 knife, but it was far outclassed in every category, in every scenario, in every way by my Teruyasu. My Teruyasu's grind some how bridges the ability to perform with the utmost finesse yet still battle on with the doggedness of an angry old man, and its abilities are commensurate with all ingredients.

Regarding the Anryu <--link: One of the attributes I love most about the Anryu that I tested was precisely what yours has problems with. The comfort in which my tester processed acorn, butternut, & spaghetti squashes instilled such moxie in my hand that peeling whole watermelon & quartering boniato had not even spurred a second's pause. As for the tip & edge requiring great caution so as to not chip, I'll agree one must respect all hard steel knives, but I overwhelmingly remember my tester blowing my mind in how tough it was which allowed me to not have to expend great caution. Respect yes, great caution, no.

Like I said, I reckon we agree to disagree because our opinions are at opposite ends of the spectrum. :|



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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:44 pm 
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I'll give an abridged version of Mel's sentiment that I totally agree with. Regardless of exact profile differences to compare the Goko to the Teruyasu is almost laughable to me. I enjoyed using the Goko and found it to be a good knife in it's price range but compared to the Teruyasu.....there is no comparison. In my experience the Teruyasu is on another plain than the Goko in every way possible. Edge taking, edge holding, grind, geometry, raw performance, etc., etc. all go to the Teruyasu. This is not your mother's White #1. There is something almost magical about this knife that I haven't found anywhere else.....yet! I will reiterate that this is just my experience with the two.



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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:53 pm 

Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 8:38 pm
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General question for you guys: I have not tried any knives with a Nashiji finish, but have with a Kurouchi finish and found the drag from that finish to be very noticeable which gave the knife in question a bit of a coarse feel through some produce. I was curious if any of you have experienced a similar feel with Nashiji finishes.



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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:32 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:20 am
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The Goko is the only "Nashiji" finish I have but it does not have the drag of a the less expensive KU finishes. For that matter, my Tanaka KU nakiri is pretty smooth too so I expect that there is significant variation from one maker to another.


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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:38 am 
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ChipB wrote:General question for you guys: I have not tried any knives with a Nashiji finish, but have with a Kurouchi finish and found the drag from that finish to be very noticeable which gave the knife in question a bit of a coarse feel through some produce. I was curious if any of you have experienced a similar feel with Nashiji finishes.


For me, not so much as the KU on a Tanaka 240 B#2.



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 Post subject: Re: TF 240 V. Goko W#1 240
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:21 am 
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I think we may have put the cart before the horse here a little bit. My 10 hours on the TF is at best, one day, so miles left to travel down this road. Mel, obviously your time with the TF is months farther along, I think you have one of the most well formed opinions on the knife and one of the deepest grasps of its capability.

I want to add that ANY knife is only as good as the person wielding it. If you all take that to mean that I don't have faith in my knife skills, or that I can't bring the most out in a knife, so be it. There are too many variables in knives for everything to add up exactly the same for every person. I enjoy using knives consistently and in different situations before I draw any concrete conclusions. I will do some insane things in the sake of a learning experience (I draw the line at frozen food, haha. No throwing knives against the ground either, thats silly). Some readers may cringe at pineapple with TF, but I had faith it could do it, and it did. I can have a reasonable expectation of performance through products until the knife demonstrates it can not do it, or I can not do it. I have spent many years learning how to use my knives as the best tools they can be, and I still want to learn more every day. It all started 10 years ago with a tourne cut, looks easy, is not at first. Through repetition, you gain the ability to make it look easy.

I really can't say I expect the Goko @ 60HRC to hold off a Teruyasu Fujiwara @ 64/65 HRC, but initially, I can see how someone could. If you were to compare them based on F+F alone, the Goko has already been soundly defeated.



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