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 Post subject: Stropping sprays on stones help please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:44 pm 

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:14 am
Posts: 190
Location: Florida, USA, Earth
I've read different things on this issue but would like to ask for advise on the stones I have. I have dmt stones but figure these are not ideal for high grit (low micron) sprays. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have a Spyderco fine grit ceramic stone. I also have Shapton glass stones (500, 1k, 2k, 6k, 8k) for the EP. I also have the standard EP water stones.

I use the ceramic stone dry but the Shapton glass stones I apply water so how does this affect this issue?

If I spray the ceramic stone how long does the diamond last? Should I use it before or after the spray dries? Does it embed itself in the ceramic? Does it wash off? If I apply a high micron spray on the ceramic stone can I wsh it off and use a lower micron spray without worrying about the coarser spray remaining? Any info on doing this is needed.

Basically anyone who has used sprays on stones, I'd learn from your experience because I have none. I have the CBN and diamond sprays as well as the boron carbide. I also have some diamond pastes I got cheap off ebay which seems to work pretty good as well as the DMT pastes. How about these products? The only thing I'm afraid of is ruining a stone.

Thanks for any help.

Jack


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 Post subject: Re: Stropping sprays on stones help please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA USA
The spyderco ceramic stone is a different beast. Personally I would not use any abrasive spray on it. Look into it though and decide for yourself what to do, there is info out there about it. A rule of thumb is to use a spray that is pretty close to the equivalent size of the abrasive in the stone you want to use. Look at the unified grit chart to get an idea of what the micron size is that your stone is equal to and go from there. I find the sprays to work really well on my finer DMT plates.

The diamond paste you got from eBay is most likely oil based and you do not want to use them on your water stones.


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 Post subject: Re: Stropping sprays on stones help please
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:17 pm 
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Posts: 258
Alrighty well why are you looking to combine compounds and stones in the first place?

Are you..
Working with an abrasion resistant steel
Just looking to experiment
Chasing a mirror

What compounds do you have and what microns are they.

Depending on grit you could use the Diamond , CBN or Boron Carbide on your shaptons. So long as they are all water based formulations. I like to go a little bit finer than the stone I am using. I would not even consider using the ebay stuff on anything , even a strop.

Provided you have met the above criteria , It does not take very much to greatly change the way your stone acts. It gets much more aggressive and has less loading issues (especially when you start to get into the higher grit stuff that likes to load up). I do use water when I combine compounds and sprays , but I run the stone more dry than if I were just using the stone alone. I also use a sprayer to lightly mist the stone so that I can keep better track of it. If you wanted to go from one grit to a finer grit you would have to lap the stone to remove all the compound. But I tend to use compound finer than the stone to begin with so the stone is still the limiting factor either way.

Get back to us and have fun!



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping sprays on stones help please
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:02 am 

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:14 am
Posts: 190
Location: Florida, USA, Earth
Sadden wrote:Alrighty well why are you looking to combine compounds and stones in the first place?

Are you..
Working with an abrasion resistant steel
Just looking to experiment
Chasing a mirror

What compounds do you have and what microns are they.

Depending on grit you could use the Diamond , CBN or Boron Carbide on your shaptons. So long as they are all water based formulations. I like to go a little bit finer than the stone I am using. I would not even consider using the ebay stuff on anything , even a strop.

Provided you have met the above criteria , It does not take very much to greatly change the way your stone acts. It gets much more aggressive and has less loading issues (especially when you start to get into the higher grit stuff that likes to load up). I do use water when I combine compounds and sprays , but I run the stone more dry than if I were just using the stone alone. I also use a sprayer to lightly mist the stone so that I can keep better track of it. If you wanted to go from one grit to a finer grit you would have to lap the stone to remove all the compound. But I tend to use compound finer than the stone to begin with so the stone is still the limiting factor either way.

Get back to us and have fun!


You asked what I am wanting to do. I'm just experimenting trying to see how different combinations effect the appearance of a bevel or the coarse/smooth condition of the cutting edge. What I would like to perfect (or as best I can) is the ability to get the edge I want. Toothy edge or smooth, mirror finish or just a nice looking bevel or whatever. Just for fun. BTW, the edge on the Cold Steel in another thread looks great. Didn't want to forget to say that. Anyway, with help with products and advice from forum people here and other places I'm very happy with how my results are improving.

I only have a few compoundsds. Boron carbide 1 micron, CBN 15, and .5 and the diamond spray .25 micron. Then the DMT diamond pastes. I don't have any nice kitchen cutlery with any high quality steel. The blade steels I'm most familiar with is what Spyderco uses. So pocket knives is really what I work on most. I've never sharpened a quality kitchen knife like are sold on CKTG and discussed most on this forum.
I"m not a chef at all and will probably never buy quality kitchen cutlery. I'd get some for wife but she preferes the average knives we have so she doens't have to worry about anything. Use them, throw them in the sink. She's happy. I enjoy sharpening so I always have an edge to touch up with her doing that. :)

One thing I do seem to have a problem achieving is a mirror finish on a bevel WITHOUT any random scratches from previous stones. This is just being in a hurry I'm sure. I have the EP Apex with Shapton glass stones up to 8k. I can get bevels with a mirror finish good enough to see a very clear reflection of leaves and branches in a tree that are 10 or 20 feet above my head. Even if there are a few scratches here and there. Ill try to explain. After I'm done with the 8k stonethere may be random scratches as deep as the 1k stone might leave. These scratches are alone. Like a grain of sand was lodged in the stone. Maybe the stones need flattening? This is with the naked eye. Looking at my edges that I'm very happy with gets depressing when I magnify it. :) I have been chasing the mirror for a while and by seeing a clear reflection of something over 10 feet away I figure I caught the mirror. But my "figuring" or standard is based on what I can see without magnification. I have the loupe with 30x and 60x lenses and I use it when sharpening but as far as the finished edge, if it looks great to the naked eye, I'm happy. When you use the term "chasing the mirror" exactly how do you determine when you catch it. Are you wanting the complete perfection you get from a glass mirror? I've only been taking this sharpening thing really seriously for a year or two max and haven't the experience a lot of you guys have. I'm having fun and am seeing significant improvement though. Sometimes the improvement comes in a BANG. With little gradual improvement ALL OF A SUDDEN I will be getting much better results than I was the day before almost. Sounds strange but I don't complain. :) Maybe it's my imagination.

Thanks for your help.

Jack

PS
Sorry to get so long winded. I do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Stropping sprays on stones help please
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:56 am 
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Posts: 258
jackknifeh wrote:You asked what I am wanting to do. I'm just experimenting trying to see how different combinations effect the appearance of a bevel or the coarse/smooth condition of the cutting edge. What I would like to perfect (or as best I can) is the ability to get the edge I want. Toothy edge or smooth, mirror finish or just a nice looking bevel or whatever. Just for fun
That's as good a reason as any ;) I work with very few abrasion resistant steels but I still like to experiment and play ;)

BTW, the edge on the Cold Steel in another thread looks great. Didn't want to forget to say that.
Thank you

Anyway, with help with products and advice from forum people here and other places I'm very happy with how my results are improving.

I only have a few compoundsds. Boron carbide 1 micron, CBN 15, and .5 and the diamond spray .25 micron. Then the DMT diamond pastes. I don't have any nice kitchen cutlery with any high quality steel.
Well I need some confirmation here but I think that keiths BC is water based but I cannot say for sure.

The blade steels I'm most familiar with is what Spyderco uses. So pocket knives is really what I work on most. I've never sharpened a quality kitchen knife like are sold on CKTG and discussed most on this forum. I"m not a chef at all and will probably never buy quality kitchen cutlery. I'd get some for wife but she preferes the average knives we have so she doens't have to worry about anything. Use them, throw them in the sink. She's happy. I enjoy sharpening so I always have an edge to touch up with her doing that. :)

One thing I do seem to have a problem achieving is a mirror finish on a bevel WITHOUT any random scratches from previous stones. This is just being in a hurry I'm sure. I have the EP Apex with Shapton glass stones up to 8k. I can get bevels with a mirror finish good enough to see a very clear reflection of leaves and branches in a tree that are 10 or 20 feet above my head. Even if there are a few scratches here and there. Ill try to explain. After I'm done with the 8k stonethere may be random scratches as deep as the 1k stone might leave. These scratches are alone. Like a grain of sand was lodged in the stone. Maybe the stones need flattening? This is with the naked eye. Looking at my edges that I'm very happy with gets depressing when I magnify it. :)
If you are using the DMT stones to establish bevels on these knives it might be helpful to add an even lower grit shapton to your lineup. I know that low grit diamond scratches can be very pesky in that way. Especially the DMT's as they seem to leave random scratches much larger than their stated "grit" before they are well broken in from what I am given to understand.

I have been chasing the mirror for a while and by seeing a clear reflection of something over 10 feet away I figure I caught the mirror. But my "figuring" or standard is based on what I can see without magnification. I have the loupe with 30x and 60x lenses and I use it when sharpening but as far as the finished edge, if it looks great to the naked eye, I'm happy. When you use the term "chasing the mirror" exactly how do you determine when you catch it. Are you wanting the complete perfection you get from a glass mirror?
That's the idea but it is very very difficult to achieve that's why I call it "chasing the mirror" :)

I've only been taking this sharpening thing really seriously for a year or two max and haven't the experience a lot of you guys have. I'm having fun and am seeing significant improvement though. Sometimes the improvement comes in a BANG. With little gradual improvement ALL OF A SUDDEN I will be getting much better results than I was the day before almost. Sounds strange but I don't complain. :) Maybe it's my imagination.
Progress is progress , its good to get "AHA" moments like that , its what we do this for.

Thanks for your help.

Jack

PS
Sorry to get so long winded. I do that.



So if your at the stage where you want to experiment and add compounds to your stones , things get very interesting at this point. Because there are a couple different paths you can take. Asides from the huge lineup of compounds available from Ken (CBN , Mono , Poly , Boron Carbide , I think if you ask him real nicely there's probably some other stuff hiding back there too ;) ) There's also much discussion on what size compound to add to what size stone. I have already expressed that I prefer to add a slightly finer compound than the stone that I am applying it too. But on more abrasion resistant steels one probably wants to use close to the same sized compound to the stone one is using. You have a couple compounds that should work well with a couple of your stones. I would try adding a drop/spritz of the 15 micron CBN to your 500 and 1000 shaptons , and if someone can confirm for me about the BC I would try adding a drop of that to your 8k stone , maybe even the 6k , but I think you will get more interesting results off of the 8k. The .5 CBN and the .25 Diamond I would save for the strops unless you feel like adding some finer stones to your lineup. That's not to say that they wont affect any of your stones , but I feel that compounds that fine would play better with some finer stones (the .5CBN would play well with the 16k GS and the .25Diamond would play well with the 30k GS stone , they work great on my 15k and 30k pro stones ;) ) This is all just suggestions , and ultimately you can use any compound on any stone for different effects. I know its not a definitive answer , but to be honest there is no definitive answer or rule when you start to get to this stage.

FWIW I have only been doing this since January , I am learning something new every day , double so if I make a phone call to Ken.
-Colin



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping sprays on stones help please
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:25 am 
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So just to reemphasize a point strongly, only use WATER based compound preparations on stones, particularly Japanese natural and synthetic waterstones. Oil on waterstones WILL ruin them everywhere the oil touches the stone and the oil WILL penetrate deeply into the stone.

So for compounds I provide you may use CBN, PolyDiamond, Boron Carbide (limited selection of grits so far) and Aluminum oxide in Emulsion, Deionized water and clear water based suspensions, but NOT paste formulations. Check with other vendors products and use at your own risk. I don't recommend using Chromium oxide as it is extremely messy not matter what the formulation. Note that suspensions and pastes may or may not have components in other vendor's products not compatible with stones. I would not use DMT pastes and would be cautious about using Boron carbide preparations other than my own on stones.

In general, build a bit of slurry on the stone and then add a small amount of compound to the slurry to enhance the slurry. Like one drop or a half pump of spray. Try to reuse the slurry rather than washing it off during . If you wish to change grits or use no grit, simply washing the stone off seems to be adequate. If you are still concerned wash off with a nail brush to scrub it a bit and then flatten. This is probably overkill, but I'm sure some will want to do this.
the sharpening session.

I would treat the ceramic stone in the same manner and use wet.

I would not put compounds on DMT or Atoma plates as these will abrade the nickel matrix holding the diamonds in the plates in place, leading to premature plate failure as the diamonds loose support and fall out of the matrix.

For synthetic stones and Arkansas stones use grits similar to the stone's grit. For Polishing stones, I'd suggest going a bit finer than the stone's grit (which you estimate).

If I missed something or you want more clarification or detail, just ask.

---
Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping sprays on stones help please
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:49 am 

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:14 am
Posts: 190
Location: Florida, USA, Earth
Sadden and Ken.

Thanks for the help. You have motivated me to WAIT on doing this for various reasons. The main one is the compatibility of what I have based on my limited compounds.

I have another question though but it's dealing with a different issue that I'd like your opinions on. Ken, you helped me several months ago by discussing the stropping compounds and strop materials. This help and some practice on my part improved my edges dramatically after stropping. Since my new question regards a different issue I think it should be in a different thread for easier identification by readers. It will be titled something like "sharpness level just using stones".

Thanks for all the help. Even when it means I DON'T do something that may result in my wasting my time and compounds and possibly ruining a stone.

Jack


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