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 Post subject: Stropping sprays or pastes applied to stones
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:08 pm 

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:14 am
Posts: 186
Location: Florida, USA, Earth
I was just reading about Alumina Stropping Paste in Ken's Corner. He stated applying it to stones give the stones extra cutting power. I have seed similar statements regarding other sprays. Is there a rule of thumb about which grit spray to apply to a specific grit stone? Should the spray be a finer or lower grit than the stone? Either way, won't the lower grit product be the dominant grit in regard to the result? Using a diamond spray on water stones? Wouldn't the water wash away the spray? Using the spray INSTEAD of water isn't the recommendation I don't think because of cost I'm sure.

How would a .5 micron spray applied to a 320 grit stone work? Would the spray make the stone cut at it's original 320 grit results but a little faster? Would the scratch pattern change? Less or more toothy edge?

Hope you see where I'm needing info. Any info is appreciated.

I use the EP so I'm asking mainly about using it but the question applies to free-hand as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Stropping sprays or pastes applied to stones
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:11 am 
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Most importantly, only use water soluble preparations for this task, so the HA diamonds are 'in' the other products are not. With my compounds DON'T use the CBN paste preps. The CBN and Polycrystalline slurry and suspension preparations are good - based on deionized water and oddly the Alumina is also good (a water soluble emulsion) so theseare ok on both synthetic and natural stones.

So what grit to use?

Generally match the particle size to the stone size particles. So a 1k stone - use a 15 micron particle. For a 2k stone ~ 8 microns, 4k stone ~ 4 microns and so forth. A 30k stone use 0.5 microns.

Now you can also use finer particles for a different effect. The finer particles yield a PREDOMINANTLY coarser scratch pattern from the stone itself with the CBN playing the role of degrading the stone slurry more rapidly (finer finish) AND giving you something to cut through those hard carbides (CBN and diamond are harder than Vanadium carbides, FYI). I do this more with natural stones than synthetics as synthetic slurries don't break down so fast or minimally). Also significantly smaller CBN particles and diamond particles seem to work well with natural stones with 'Su' or holes (think of a sponge's holes), not clogging up the 'su'. Thus the CBN and diamond act like a sort of liquid nagura.

VERY little CBN is needed - a spray or a single drop is more than adequate, but keep the 'doped' mud on the stone for the session.

---
Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Stropping sprays or pastes applied to stones
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:18 pm 

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:14 am
Posts: 186
Location: Florida, USA, Earth
How about stones when no slurry is created. Ceramic or diamond stones can be used without water. Have you tried spraying anything on these types of stones? I have a fine and UF Spyderco ceramic stone but don't know what grit hey equate to. I also have DMT stones (XC, C, F, EF). The DMT EF stone is 9 micron so I wouldn't think the spray would be of any use. The UF ceramic stone is pretty fine and may benefit from a fine grit diamond spray. Would the CBN wash off the ceramic stone? At the moment I have .5 CBN and .25 HA diamond spray.

For the EP I have EP stones and a few other stones from Congress tools and Shapton glass stones (500, 2k, 6k). The issue with using the GS stones on the EP is since the stones are upside down the slurry is not as effective. Or that's the way it seems to me. Mostly what I create is a mess. I spray the stones every few strokes because the water is scraped off almost immediately. So, using water on stones on the EP would wash the spray off immediately wouldn't it? I'm curious mainly about the ceramic stones though. I figure I could try the diamond spray as it seems it would wash off with no problem even if it didn't help the performance. The CBN however may be harder to wash off??? I like the stones as is and don't want to mess them up. Always interested in different results I can get with the tools I have now though.

BTW, FYI additional note: My edges have gotten SIGNIFICANTLY sharper since reading on this forum, using the products available here and ... well, that's about it. I was going to say practice but I really don't think practice played a part. My skill hasn't improved much I don't think. My understanding has improved. Mainly I think, the quality of very fine grit sprays and semi-paste I've gotten from CKTG (Ken Schwartz and Handamerican, CKTG) deserve the credit. So, thanks to everyone. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has benefited from the knowledge and products found around here.


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 Post subject: Re: Stropping sprays or pastes applied to stones
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:11 am 
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Thanks for the kind words about my products.

So using the diamond or CBN sprays on diamond plates would be a bad idea, doing little more than prematurely grinding the nickel matrix supporting the diamonds, causing premature plate wear.

My preference when using diamond plates or ceramic rods is to use them wet. Yea it's a bit more of a mess, but the same logic applies. The particles - loose diamonds, metal swarf etc are best rinsed out rather than wearing down the nickel matrix of the plates or impacting the swarf into the ceramic rods.

CBN rinses of easily as does diamond sprays. Chromium oxide is a MESS. Dawn dishwashing liquid helps but it is a mess and I avoid it completely.

What IS important is the carrier. If it is water soluble you are good to go. So my slurries and suspensions and the Alumina ARE water soluble. Use them on stones. My pastes are not, nor are other vendor's pastes. The ones that Mark carries that are water soluble are 'the best' for this.

Not all suspensions are water soluble. Some of these suspensions even break down into subcomponents left sitting for a while. These are NOT to be used for this and are of poor quality anyhow. All of my suspensions are water soluble.

Using sprays on upside down stones is a bit of an art. Use minimal water. Don't push the water to the edge of the stone. This is true whether the stones are muddy or not. For ceramic type stones - Shaptons and Spydercos, don't expect mud buildup and use less water. The CBN and diamond do act to reduce glazing or metal swarf sticking to the stone - a positive side effect.

Hope this helps.

---
Ken



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