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 Post subject: Re: shirogami no 2 sharpening
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:16 pm 

Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 3:40 pm
Posts: 19
Yes the ep stones. Well it was the first sharpen. So 220. 120.400.600.1000. Balsa strop. Equal steokes each side.


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 Post subject: Re: shirogami no 2 sharpening
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:19 pm 

Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 3:40 pm
Posts: 19
Yes they the ep stones. Was the first sharpen. 120.220,400,600,1000 and balsa strop.


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 Post subject: Re: shirogami no 2 sharpening
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:37 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 48
I am not an expert with the EP, but I think you may have the issue I sometimes encounter when sharpening a new knife for the first time...

Did you try the Sharpie test? One thing I often do is apply Sharpie to not just the edge, but on the bottom of point in which the two angles meet. Then I give it a few passes and look at it with a loupe. I find in many cases (mainly on initial sharpening) that while the Sharpie on the sides of the edges are removed (which appears to indicate all is well), the Sharpie on the bottom most area is not removed and so the stone is not making full contact with the edge, with the lack of contact happening in the precise area the cut begins at. So I have found that the Sharpie test can be a little deceiving if attention is only paid to the sides.

At first I thought this was from a bur that wasnt removed, but in the large majority of cases it wasn't. I believe the actual reason this happens is because the angle is somewhat variable, and in some cases the bevel itself is not even. Especially at the tip area, this seems to be much more common because sometimes the angles on this area are different from the rest of the knife. I have also owned some knives with convex edges that have had similar issues.

I generally put dead even angles on my knives (which with folding knives especially, it results in the edge around the tip becoming taller than on the rest of the knife (example - https://www19.corecommerce.com/~edgepro ... dge_lg.jpg ) and when this happens, I sharpen through to set that completely even angle, which fixes the problem. In a few cases where the issue is really, really minor, I have also raised the pivot ever so slightly (like less than 1/2 of a degree) and this sometimes works. This issue is very subtle, but I find it can have a big effect on how sharp the knife is (especially on the area closer to the tip). Someone with more knowledge than me may understand this issue at a technical level that I do not know.

I noticed you said you used the 120 silicone carbide and the 220 stone. If a knife isn't super-super dull and has serious edge deformation or major damage like large chips, I avoid usage of the 120 and 220 all together. They remove a significant amount of metal and tend to damage the edge as they go, and I find this results in a need to work through the higher grit stones for much longer (this especially applies to the 120 which is pretty aggressive). Provided the knife isn't in super terrible condition, avoiding the 120/220 unless necessary can increase the longevity of the knife (and makes sharpening much easier) IMO. I generally start at 600 or 1000 on my knives, and 400 if they are duller. I only use the 120 or 220 for reprofiling and repairing major damage, and mainly the 220 as I only use the 120 if the edge is just wrecked and damaged to a point where significant metal needs to be removed to fix the blade.


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 Post subject: Re: shirogami no 2 sharpening
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:33 am 

Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 3:40 pm
Posts: 19
Nice one thanks for the tips. With regards to the sharpie. You mean to put it litrally on the cutting edge? So almost run your knife along it asif you were slicing it? The only reason I did the 220 and120 was because I wated to put a 15 degree edge on. It came with around an 18 degree edge. Mr knife fanatic told me these knives.perform best at 15 or slightly under.


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 Post subject: Re: shirogami no 2 sharpening
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:00 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 48
You got it...right along the cutting edge...but you will need a loupe in order to use this to your benefit. When you run the Sharpie on the cutting edge, it bleeds ever so slightly onto both sides. When you are making total contact with the edge, you should be able to confirm with a loupe this overlap is removed to a point in which practically zero Sharpie remains on the cutting edge even under magnification. If it does, you are not making the perfect contact you need and that little bit of material left on the edge is why it is not cutting as hoped...in most cases, I find that is the remnant of an angle different than the current angle being set with the EP, as that out portion is generally the slowest to shape (in cases of going lower, which is most common given tip areas are generally higher angles from factories) and that the best solution is to keep working the edge until you sharpen through this. It will be a progressive process as you work the bur and slowly work it down.

I am terrible at explaining this in technical terms and someone with more knowledge than me can explain this better, but I think if you just try this with a Sharpie and loupe you will immediately see what I mean.

Another thing to do with a loupe is to examine the edge in terms of the markings each stone leaves. If you can see an area on the edge with noticeably different markings, chances are that means the stones are not making full contact with that area and that has to be fixed (and in some cases, pressure applied is not even, which also should be fixed). When full contact is made with that edge, the patterns each grit leaves is very distinct under magnification, and they should be very even on all portions of the edge. In addition to feeling for the bur and looking at it, I always examine the markings each stone leaves to ensure I am progressively working that edge with perfect contact/pressure for an even finish.

As a general rule, I find that any area that upsweeps near the tip and the tip is going to be slower to develop the bur and slower to get that even marking, especially with earlier sharpenings if the tip area is on a thicker angle than the rest of the knife and a 100% even angle has not been set yet. That is often why you see a lot of knives in which the tip area is not as sharp as the rest of the knife, especially with sharpening mechanisms other than the EP or hand sharpening on stones such as the V-systems, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: shirogami no 2 sharpening
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 250
BIG +1 on TD&S creeping up on the burr.



Douglas


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 Post subject: Re: shirogami no 2 sharpening
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:05 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:52 pm
Posts: 197
Richard steyn wrote:You mean to put it litrally on the cutting edge? So almost run your knife along it asif you were slicing it?/


There's not doubt that there are better stones than the stock ones (and worse.. the generic no name ones on amazon are god awful), but they will indeed get a knife screaming sharp if your technique is good.

I'm still learning but some things that helped me:

1) I paint the blade like the sharpie was a stone. I try to make full contact along the sharpening edge. Slightly rock toward the edge to make sure you get the whole thing.

Look to see if there are places where the marker doesn't look right. If you have a loop this is much easier. Uou should be able to see any places where the edge doesn't fully come together. Then take a dry high grit stone and very lightly run one or two strokes down. As soon as the marker starts to wear examine the knife to see where your not hitting. Look at the edge very closely to see if you can find any marker or dark spots in a reflecting. These may be problem areas

2) Hold two of your stones together like a sandwich. Can you see light between them? Once you can, you should be thinking about flattening. If not this will round your edge very slightly and dull your edge

3) Are you using the stop collar to account for different thickness stones? Place the stones on a flat surface next to each other touching side to side in the same order progression you are using and run your finger nail over the top of the stones. You be able to easily feel any stone that is larger than the others. outliers will throw off your edge as they will not be hitting the knife at the same angle. (perfectly the same is best, but if they decrease SLIGHTLY as your grits go up that is OK. (You'll be slightly micro-beveling the knife)

4) Placement on the Edge Pro: Use marker to give your self a center line on the edge pro. Line up your knife to sharpen and put a line on the knife itself wherever you want to lay the knife down (This will give you repeatability. In particular you can flip the knife over back and forth and know your getting the same attack each time) If the knife is large divide it into sections and do the same technique to each section

5) You should be able to pass most of the "Easy" sharpness tests after the first stone. Try the fingernail test, Will the knife edge glide off your nail or dig in? (A knife has to be pretty dull to fail this). Cut paper: Examine the knife and the paper. look for tugs or threads. Don't move on to the higher grits until these issues are resolved. very lightly run the edge of your fingernail down the edge of your knife. your not trying to cut your nail just feel any imperfections. Be careful: a sharp knife will easily cut your nail.... your looking for areas of the knife that are not as refined as the rest (or damaged...)


if i think of more i'll chime in again :)

-Mike


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 Post subject: Re: shirogami no 2 sharpening
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:11 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 1465
Go to a more acute angle. These will take it. Try a zero grind if you can make your ep go that low. And follow all the other good advice given above too.

---
Ken



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