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 Post subject: Toughness
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:04 am 

Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 10:44 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
From a steel vs steel standpoint which steel is toughest, I mean most line worthy non chippy? PM steels, stainless steels? You're information is greatly appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Toughness
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:29 am 
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JASPER <> Toughness is a relative term, and heat treat is more pertinent a concern than steel. A steel that has been hardened to higher levels will support steeper final bevels & retain said edge for longer periods of time, but will present a more brittle matrix, as well. This is why Mercers, Messermeisters, Wusthofs, etc., are such battle horses; they are soft and will deform rather than chip, but as they are soft, they can not support steep final bevels w/o carbide fallout. This is one of the reasons why Globals & Shuns were so favored; they were slightly harder than the old guard & could therefore retain steeper edges with longer retention, but not really enough to exhibit any trait that was much of a premium to a German.

IMO, for a line knife, consider a knife in the range of HRc 58-60. You have offered nothing for background, and I could be a jackass and throw out suggestions like the Western Masamoto <--link or the Eastern Sekiso, <--link but I don't feel like just offering extremely competent & appropriate knives as recommendations when you haven't offered any background for me to tailor to.

For all I know, you're a sushi cook slicing maki all shift.



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 Post subject: Re: Toughness
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:51 am 

Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 10:44 pm
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Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
I'm not a sushi chef making maki all day, I'm a sous chef in a modern French-American restaurant doing everything from pastry to breaking down bone in primal cuts of meat to working sauté. I fully realize that heat treat is paramount, but that being said white #1 will never be as tough as cheap German steel. I'm not in the market for a cheap German wedge monster, I was wondering about more modern steels that could offer more durability than the white #1 that said itomae would be using. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Toughness
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:52 am 
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JASPER <> If you could find a smith to treat W#1 to Hrc56 like a German X50CrMoV15, I can easily argue they would each be as "tough" as the other. Once more, I repeat heat treat is far more pertinent to your selection.

You reference pastry & butcher work, but I doubt that is pertinent to this conversation assuming we are still talking about a line knife. You also are referencing reactive & stain resistant steels w/o any stated preference beyond SS & PM.

Then you go on to reference durability of which is somewhat ambiguous a term as semantics become more prevalent.

I will default back to your original post with a little more understanding of your Chef's kitchen.

Clearly, you can step into the "stainless" realm of Takefu's SG-2 PM or BÖHLER-UDDEHOLM AEB-L or Hitachi's Ginsanko or Sandvik 19c27 or semi-stainless Konosuke HD or Kikuichi TKC steels or blah blah blah, but in a 210mm gyuto, which is what I can only assume you would prefer on a line, it's going to be difficult to find something soft enough to present the durability you seem to want.

I've suggested you two great durable knives.

There are plenty of steel snobs that will pontificate about the benefit of this or that, but in the practical and potentially abusive reality of a busy restaurant with cooks, dishwashers, servers, etc. in the mix any of the proven steels at CKTG in the range of Hrc58-60 are your best bet... in this man's opinion.



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 Post subject: Re: Toughness
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:32 am 

Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 10:44 pm
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Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
This is honestly a theoretical question so heat treatment is not an issue, I wouldn't want to find a custom smith and pay them to custom make a knife with white steel at hrc 56. I was referring to different steels offered in their usual (slightly differing hardness rating) states. As far as what I use the knife for, I am comfortable doing anything with a gyuto whether it be icing a cake or breaking down lamb racks. SS, PM, or carbon doesn't matter the question wasn't about knife recommendations, it was about "chippiness"...assuming totally hypothetically that heat treating was at manufactures recommended specs. That being said, I thourghly enjoy this exchange so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Toughness
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
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Jasper,

I don't know why you are concentrating on the chippy aspect. Edge stability is a dance between carbide volume, heat treat, edge angle, and edge finish. There is no one right answer.

But to answer your question in the spirit it was provided, I would say something with a low carbide volume, which would be White #2.

Cheers,

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Toughness
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:02 am
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This is honestly a theoretical question so heat treatment is not an issue, I wouldn't want to find a custom smith and pay them to custom make a knife with white steel at hrc 56. I was referring to different steels offered in their usual (slightly differing hardness rating) states. As far as what I use the knife for, I am comfortable doing anything with a gyuto whether it be icing a cake or breaking down lamb racks. SS, PM, or carbon doesn't matter the question wasn't about knife recommendations, it was about "chippiness"...assuming totally hypothetically that heat treating was at manufactures recommended specs. That being said, I thourghly enjoy this exchange so far.



First, you are never going to find the gyuto that do everything you want the way you want to do it. not if you plan on frenching lamb racks with it at least (a paring knife is my preference here, a paring knife is my preference for frenching a beef rack too). Lets nail down some specifics as to what exactly this is in reference to.

Mel is spot on talking about heat treat, its impossible (on a forum full of knife and steel nerds at least) to rate steels on toughness without taking into consideration the heat treat, grind, angle on the edge, cutting boards, what you are cutting. sorry to burst your bubble. :)

I have found, though, that Masamoto's stainless line is tough enough to do everything from breaking down lobster to paper thin slices of poached artichokes without going back on the stones, until I stepped into a top tier kitchen. I chipped it once in 5 years, I'm also replacing it because the edge retention isn't holding up to my needs these days.

What bone in primals are you breaking down. Theres no way I'd ever be using a gyuto on a 103. Nor have I used it at any point in time breaking down whole lamb, pigs, and fish.


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 Post subject: Re: Toughness
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:04 pm 
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Some steel definitions:

Toughness in steel is it's ability to resist chipping or breaking....simple definition.

Wear resistance in steel is pretty self explanatory....how well it resists wear. This is the attribute that knife makers hate. High wear resistant steels are a biotch to grind.

The chart doesn't show strength. Strength is a steels ability to resist deformation....simple definition.

Strength and toughness are usually polar opposites.....raise the strength, lower the toughness. Makes sense, right? Raise the hardness of the steel, the more likely it is to chip (lower toughness).

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The chart is included to show some steels, their toughness and wear resistance, and to show how they vary greatly.



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 Post subject: Re: Toughness
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Jaspernowhere wrote:I'm not a sushi chef making maki all day, I'm a sous chef in a modern French-American restaurant doing everything from pastry to breaking down bone in primal cuts of meat to working sauté. I fully realize that heat treat is paramount, but that being said white #1 will never be as tough as cheap German steel. I'm not in the market for a cheap German wedge monster, I was wondering about more modern steels that could offer more durability than the white #1 that said itomae would be using. Thank you.


This is exactly why I keep my trusty Henckel around. If I by mistake hit the edge of a pot with one of my JK's...it'd be screwed. Henckel, no biggy. You do have to be more careful with these knives in use...being so fine and expensive. Toughest should be powdered steel, while also having fine carbides. Longer to sharpen, but will take and hold a fine edge.

Still not as fine tho, as White #1, etc (imo).. and I like being able to do quick touch's up, etc. Imo, Japanese need these fine edges at the expense of being tough, because of their cuisine and presentation.
I'm not a chef tho, so take that with a grain of salt. :)



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 Post subject: Re: Toughness
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:52 pm 

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I'm guessing this gets back to the Global Sai question you had a little bit ago. As said in the previous thread, they are really heavy. Couple notches higher in HRC than standard Global, but seem just as durable if not more so (at least to me). Have you looked into Misono UX10? They are just about comparably priced to the Sai with a similar heat treatment profile (59-60). I've handled the 440 before but not the UX. I know UX10 have a tremendous reputation among professional chefs...



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