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 Post subject: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:36 pm
Posts: 352
Location: NY, NY; New Haven, CT
Sorry if this topic has been covered many times before...

I'm curious about rolling edges. I use Kono HD steel quite regularly at home. I'm curious about edge retention and rolling because I feel like I lose the highest refinement of my edge very quickly, and I don't go past 6k with trailing strokes. I know this may be from not removing a burr completely, so I've tried to be more attentive to this recently.

Nonetheless, I'm curious: does the sharpening angle dramatically affect the edges ability to roll with a knife like a Kono HD (and here I'm referring to the difference between, say, 7-11 vs. 10-18)? Or is the rolling of such an edge likely do to a lack of refinement in sharpening technique?



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 Post subject: Re: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
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I think 14 dps would be the sweet spot for Kono HD. That would equate to your 10-18 asymmetrical. IMO 7-11 is asking for edge stability issues with that particular steel at that particular HRc. Also, an acute angle buys you less when a knife is thin behind the edge.

Cheers,

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 6:45 pm 
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I agree. I recommend about 30 degrees inclusive. If you go to about 18 degrees inclusive you will lose your edge much more quickly and you should expect chipping issues, edge rolling etc for only a minor increase in cutting performance.



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 Post subject: Re: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 1:51 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:34 pm
Posts: 164
I believe with a knife that has the geometry like a kono, the geometry and thinned behind the edge make it an excellent performer in itself. A slightly more obtuse angle on the edge itself will minimally affect cutting performance and greatly increase retention.



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 Post subject: Re: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 1:58 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:36 pm
Posts: 352
Location: NY, NY; New Haven, CT
Thanks for these responses so far! I sharpen freehand and am rather new at it, so I don't know what my exact angles are. Recently, however, I have realized that, given some of the scratching on my blade shoulders and the smallness of my fingers, I am probably sharpening at a more acute angle than I need (the idea of "pinky height" of the stone can vary quite a bit, for example!). When I started, I used some elaborate measurements to try to get a sense of what the proper angle should look and feel like. But I think, given this advice, that I may try a less acute angle next time.

BTW, my apologies: I tend to sharpen with a 60/40 micro bevel, but plan to keep 50/50 thinning on my shoulders. the 7-11/ 10-18 was for ranges of angles (not for asymmetrical angles), as I don't have any way to precisely measure the angles.



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 Post subject: Re: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:39 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:58 pm
Posts: 186
Hi-

No intention of taking over, but I was just about to post almost the exact same question in regard to the Kono HH Funayuki/Gyuto. I have been using the knife for about a month now and I just can't seem to keep what I would consider a solid edge. Even after going through a few (FEW) carrots, onions, and celery stalks for mirepoix, the edge will look pretty glinty and beat up. Not chipped or anything, but definitely worked.

I've done just about everything I can think of to test and adjust the edge.
For reference:
-I am working on my trusty end grain board, so no problems with the cutting surface.
-I have been sharpening at a freehand angle comparable or conservative in relation to most of my other knives including blue#1, AS, White#1, and various stainless steel types. Just to check I made a jig and that freehand angle is in the ballpark of 15 degrees per side. I definitely take my Buho Nakiri much well below 15dps and it does fine.
-At most I go to 5k, then lightly strop on newspaper. To be sure there is no wire edge I've been pulling the knife through cork have and even tried some soft pine.

After this routine the blade is razor sharp, cuts effortlessly, shaves, does a solid free-hand tomato test, etc. The problem is that edge is busted after half and hour of real cooking. Today I took the angle up to about 18dps. I guess I'll see how that goes.
Does anyone have experience with the HH steel in particular? HH in relation to the HD in this department? I would think at 61 it should hold a little longer... Any help would be much appreciated. I want to love the knife, but right now I'm starting to get nervous whenever I use it.

THANKS!


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 1:44 am 
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To 'tune' your knife you can start with a bit too acute of an angle which it sounds like you already have. Gradually make a more and more obtuse microbevel until the edge is robust enough for YOUR needs - best determined by you. When you have reached this angle stick with it until your microbevel grows to a full sized bevel. Then you can thin it as needed but keep that angle which works for you with your cutting style on your knife.

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Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 2:26 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:58 pm
Posts: 186
Thanks Ken! Great idea using a microbevel to find the best angle and then going from there. There will definitely be some adjustment in using/sharpening such a thin blade. I guess I was just a little startled by how soft the HH steel feels on the board and on the stones. A few light passes on a 1k Shapton and the bevel is reset with a modest burr. I don't have any other knives to go that quick....


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 2:50 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:15 am
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Location: Raleigh, NC
HH steel sharpens incredibly easily for stainless. It's not just you.


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 Post subject: Re: Edge Rolling, burrs, and angles
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:40 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:58 pm
Posts: 186
Thanks Lepus. I can't say I'm loving the HH at this point. I like the easy sharpening, but I'd rather have to do it a little less often. The angle adjustments I made over the weekend seem to be holding up a little better though. I'll just give it some time. Luckily it isn't my only knife :)


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