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 Post subject: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:17 pm 
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I have less than 50 Japanese knives. Most carbon steel with double-bevels. I would like your feedback on a couple of stones that i could use a beginning (course) stones.

Right now I use my chocera 400/800, then step up to the thick cut 1200 bester, Natural Aoto/Nagura, Ohair/Nagura , Ozuku/1 HA diamond stray and finish with a Boron 1 balsa strop. Please offer advise on what stones you would suggest to go below my Bester 1200. TKS


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 Post subject: Re: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:24 am 
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Consider the Kyushu Ohmura or - even coarser the Hirashima as the coarsest of natural stones.

Which naguras are you referring to? For natural Naguras in addition to tomonaguras, consider the Koma, Botan or ue-bbotan or the Tsushima naguras. For middle grit stones or Nakado, consider the Igarashi and Binsui stones as well as the Tajima stones. Please PM me for more details and a more in depth discussion.

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Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:33 am 
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Thanks Ken, I've been using the Chu Nagura. I think I'm going to go with the Binsui. I don't need a stone to create new bevels just establish the one I have but build upon that. Was also thinking about a 500 Shapton Glass stone? Do you think this would make a good progression?

Would be 500 Shapton, Binsui, 1200 Bester to establish the blade road, then increase the EP 5 to 7 degrees higher and create a micro using Aoto/nagura, Ohair/Nagura and Ozuku/Diamond Spray finished by 1 boron carbide on balsa.


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 Post subject: Re: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:24 pm 
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You could comfortably eliminate the 1200 Bester from this lineup. You could start with the 500 GlassStone. It won't give you a natural finish, but that can get established later with your followup stones. I also wouldn't bother with using the Chu nagura in combination with the above stones as it is a good bit coarser than them. Depending on the size of your chu nagura, it can be used earlier on in the sequence as is done by sword polishers as a stand alone stone.

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Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:55 pm 
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Ken, Thanks again for the follow up. Thats interesting, perhaps I don't have a Chu nagura as it creates a creamy thick mud on my Aoto, hadn't occurred to me that its a courser grit.

Now I'm thinking about creating primary bevel formed from the 500 glass stone, then Aoto with nagura (which type of nagura should I use? I picked up a set of finger stones perhaps something in that set will be more suitable as a nagura? )

Anyway, then use an EP tapes to polish. This edge will be sharp but not finished yet and i'm not even expecting a burr). Then move the EP up and work a micro bevel with Ohair/Nagura and Ozuku/Diamond Spray finished by 1 boron carbide on balsa.


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 Post subject: Re: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:10 am 
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An aoto will create more than adequate mud on its own. If anything you could use a tomonagura (same nagura) - a small piece of the same kind of aoto, but even that isn't really necessary. I have a number of types and hardnesses of Aoto (Monzen, Aono, Kouzaki, etc) and in particular the softer ones from each mine gush mud. For the Ohira (note the spelling) and especially the Ozuku (I'm guessing an Ozuku Asagi), these are particularly hard stones so a nagura is appropriate. My preference is a tomonagura or small piece of matching stone as an ideal nagura. I have these if you need some. A somewhat coarser slurry can be created using a 1200 grit Atoma plate on these very hard stones.

For these harder stones, you can also make a more aggressive and finer slurry using the Cubic Boron Nitride or Polycrystaline diamond. BE SURE to only use a water soluble preparation for this! I'd suggest the tenth micron CBN and then use it alone as a final strop if you wish, preferably over nanocloth.

If you have an interest in playing with traditional Naguras, I f do have Koma ue-Botan and Tsushima naguras, but that's yet another topic. I carry it more for sword polishers and some straight razor users who use this style of sharpening (not my personal preference).

Send me a PM for a more detailed discussion.

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Ken

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Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:14 pm 
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ken123 wrote:You could comfortably eliminate the 1200 Bester from this lineup. You could start with the 500 GlassStone. It won't give you a natural finish, but that can get established later with your followup stones. I also wouldn't bother with using the Chu nagura in combination with the above stones as it is a good bit coarser than them. Depending on the size of your chu nagura, it can be used earlier on in the sequence as is done by sword polishers as a stand alone stone.

---
Ken


....or if you want to save time to get closer to the final bevels....use atomas to establish the bevel and for low end grinding - as Ken alluded, your further progression will provide the natural finish....

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 Post subject: Re: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:18 am 
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Also quite reasonable. The Atomas really do make short work of establishing a precise bevel, and then converting the diamond scratch pattern with naturals. BUT sometimes, oddly enough - precision isn't the answer. You see this with yanagis and other single bevels where the front bevel isn't dead flat. Here the Atomas will just hit high spots. This is where a softer stone comes in handy. You COULD make everything dead flat with the Atomas, but it makes more sense to not remove all the concavity present on many front bevels all at once. In the end the choice of all naturals, all synthetics and diamond / CBN products is almost a personal and task specific choice.

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Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:40 pm 
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Noted Thanks again Ken. Totally agree with you singles. The Shinogi on my Honton Sekan Dojo is not strait by any means. I like the Atomas but how long will they last? I have some DMT bench blocks that wore out dam quick.


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 Post subject: Re: Advise on a course natural stone
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:15 am 
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Actually I wasn't specifically addressing the shinogi line but rather the flatness of the front bevel. Getting a shinogi line repaired to where it is precise again is a whole different and messy topic. Since this front bevel - like the back of the knife is usually ground initially on large stone wheels approximately a meter in diameter, they are initially concave. Subsequent operations reduce this concavity to varying degrees depending on the knifemaker. A crisp shinogi line is desired beyond just it's aesthetic appeal because functionally it lets the fish cleanly separate from the knife after it is cut rather than sticking to the knife and distorting the cut.

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