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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:15 pm 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
Posts: 863
Umberto wrote:Sorry Jason but I strongly disagree. No matter what kind of steel is used the individual user is going to have a strong personal preference for one kind of edge steepness or bevel geometry.

Is it not an individual subject of any steel regardless of super duper alloys? What makes it not comparable? It's all subjective BS really. Some people think Cutco is super steel :)

If the object of using powdered metal steels is ultimately edge retention it would make sense to convex the hell out of them and beat the hell out of them :)


You can disagree but you have no facts to base your disagreement.

Hardness IS the deciding factor of many things in low alloy steels and the reason it's not comparable once you reach alloy steels is because the alloy steel has so many other factors that play into performance.

Also convex is simply a shape and has nothing to do with edge retention. Again, hardness and edge angle will be ultimate factors in deciding edge retention.

Personal preference is not a factor of how steep or obtuse a edge can be made on a given knife, hardness, geometry, and what you are cutting however do.


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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:24 am
Posts: 279
Jason B. wrote:You can disagree but you have no facts to base your disagreement.


Just because you sharpen knives for a living doesn't mean that what you say is fact.

If you are going to demand facts, then you better have facts too.


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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:38 pm 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
Posts: 863
MowgFace wrote:
Jason B. wrote:You can disagree but you have no facts to base your disagreement.


Just because you sharpen knives for a living doesn't mean that what you say is fact.

If you are going to demand facts, then you better have facts too.


It's proven science, not my facts or anything I have made up.

So keep you insults to yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:13 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:24 am
Posts: 279
Insults?

I can gladly wait until you have the proper citations to claim what you say to be fact. As for now i can take what you say as opinion based on experience, not fact.


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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:51 pm 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
Posts: 863
So what's your question? What would you like me to google for you?


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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:25 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 427
Once again I strongly disagree. Personal preference is the entire deciding factor in what bevel angle to use. The sweet spot of each knife ultimately depends on the users habits.

Asking for scientific literature when discussing a subjective topic is good for a laugh. Thanks I needed that.

The OP posted questions looking for answers. But ultimately I think the op should experiment to determine what angles and bevels work best for the applied objects to be cut.

"Personal preference is not a factor of how steep or obtuse a edge can be made on a given knife, hardness, geometry, and what you are cutting however do."

A bit contradictory, don't you think?

It is entirely dependent on the user of the knife to determine the limitations of his or her knife. I think the op was fishing for suggestions and was expecting a magic answer. But it's not overly complicated and it's not overly simple.

With time and patience the individual owner of the knife will be determine what is the most edge retaining and durable edge.

Most tactile and hunting knives that are actually used contain a convex. This isn't merely a shape, it's there to reinforce the strength of the edge in situations where you are going to be needing to use found stones to add teeth back to the edge...A convex edge is much more forgiving of lack of precision with angles and hand movements than other edges.

At some point the diminishing curve sets in.


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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:24 am
Posts: 279
Umberto wrote:"Personal preference is not a factor of how steep or obtuse a edge can be made on a given knife, hardness, geometry, and what you are cutting however do."

A bit contradictory, don't you think?


+1 for sure.


Well Jason, since you offered so nicely. The following points you made, appear to be false.

Please enlighten me how i am wrong.


Jason B. wrote:Also convex is simply a shape and has nothing to do with edge retention. Again, hardness and edge angle will be ultimate factors in deciding edge retention.


Jason B. wrote:The bevel angle SHOULD ALWYAS be the lowest a blade can handle for the cutting tasks it will perform.

I dont know how you think you can justify this absolute. I am interested in hearing your explanation here.

Jason B. wrote:The hardness does dictate what a knife can be used for and how it can be sharpened.


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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 662
Umberto wrote:The OP posted questions looking for answers. But ultimately I think the op should experiment to determine what angles and bevels work best for the applied objects to be cut...

...I think the op was fishing for suggestions and was expecting a magic answer....


Actually I was postulating a very generalized rule of thumb from an odd mathematical relationship I have noticed over the years. The forum proceded to break it off in my azz and then turned on each other like rabid dogs. But you're my dogs and I gotta love you. :lol:

And truth be told I could have phrased the original post better.

Cheers,

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:19 am 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
Posts: 863
So personal preference is a new performance factor in knives.... Well, that's amazing.

To gain maximum performance in a cutting task a edge geometry needs to be as thin as the steel will allow. This is common practice. Cutting is a fight of geometry not sharpness, why is this hard to understand?

1. How do you feel convex increases edge retention? A curving surface increases edge retention? Really? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convex
2. Answered above, and here http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Detai ... 28C60.aspx. And here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_sharpening And here http://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-k ... harpening/. Just let me know if you want more links.
3. Hardness is what decides the resistance to be scratched or deformed, and tensile strength heres a few links to help you understand what hardness is. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardness and http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_scale and http://www.calce.umd.edu/TSFA/Hardness_ad_.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Bevel angle rule of thumb?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:35 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:00 pm
Posts: 2171
Hey Guys, I realize that everyone is passionate about their point of view and what their personal experiences and knowledge bring to this discussion. With that said, in the end, it's just sharpening steel. Can we turn it down a notch or two?

Let's chalk it up to the diversity that makes this forum great. Man sodas all around ;-).


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