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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:24 pm
Posts: 298
Was reading up about 19C27. It seems like there are large carbides in 19C27 and these limit how sharp the knife can get. How well does it take an edge? Can anyone give a rating in comparison to say AS, AEB-L or some of the other carbons. Eg does this compare as a 9 compared to AS or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:01 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:00 am
Posts: 676
rayong wrote:Was reading up about 19C27. It seems like there are large carbides in 19C27 and these limit how sharp the knife can get. How well does it take an edge? Can anyone give a rating in comparison to say AS, AEB-L or some of the other carbons. Eg does this compare as a 9 compared to AS or something.



19C27 has trouble taking a 7K+ finish in my testing. It prefers to be at the 5K range. It likes a long progression. I do 400, 1k, 2k, 4k, 5k and rarely strop with compound.

It doesn't take as long as other stainless to sharpen however it's no carbon. Doesn't reach anywhere near the potential that AS is capable of.

I would say it's like VG-10 but burr removal isn't as bad but you sacrifice a little bit of edge retention.


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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:24 pm
Posts: 298
Thanks Lunatic. I see a carbon in my future. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:43 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:24 pm
Posts: 298
OK so its not as sharp as a carbon. But I'm having some problem wrapping my head around this "carbons are a little sharper" thing since I've not tried one. Would that little difference make it any less competent with cutting tomatoes? Can I push cut a tomato vs having to slice it to break the skin?


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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:00 am
Posts: 676
rayong wrote:OK so its not as sharp as a carbon. But I'm having some problem wrapping my head around this "carbons are a little sharper" thing since I've not tried one. Would that little difference make it any less competent with cutting tomatoes? Can I push cut a tomato vs having to slice it to break the skin?



That's more down to the tomato and sharpening technique. Both should be able to do it, however Carbon will take on a higher level of refinement with ease, 19C27 will struggle with higher refinements.

You can get the 19C27 wicked sharp, scary sharp. It just takes a longer time than carbon. More time sharpening = fatigue, fatigue = lesser results.


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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:12 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:20 am
Posts: 1841
"OK so its not as sharp as a carbon. But I'm having some problem wrapping my head around this "carbons are a little sharper" thing since I've not tried one. Would that little difference make it any less competent with cutting tomatoes? Can I push cut a tomato vs having to slice it to break the skin?"

The analogy I use is stone aggregate in concrete. Carbon has fewer alloying elements so it has comparatively few and small stones in the mix. As a consequence it abrades to a cleaner edge with less change of hitting a large stone that either sticks out or rips out leaving a depression in the edge. A typical stainless steel has more allying elements, namely chromium, that increases the number and size of the stones. You may be able to work an edge to a high level of refinement, but the material itself resists it more than a more "pure" alloy. It should be noted that manufacturing matters too. Carbides can form and grain size of a pure carbon steel can become large with poor bladesmithing, so a carbon is not necessarily capable of a finer edge.

So in the case of toothiness or bite to pierce a tomato skin, a carbon is not automatically keener than a stainless. A carbon with a 5k edge will have a small amount of tooth. A large grained stainless on the same 5k stone might behave like it has a 3k finish. So when people say carbon is "sharper", they are basically saying the theoretical limit of how keen the edge can get is higher, but also the steel will take a keen edge more quickly and at a higher level of refinement on a given stone than a stainless counterpart.

FWIW, I have read some about this, but if anyone more knowledgeable than I wants to call this description dumb, you won't hurt my feelings.


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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:08 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:27 am
Posts: 185
Location: Yuma, AZ
At the advice of Taz, I went at the handle today after the getting the lawn in order... Totally a different feel and I really like it. I went from 320 all the way up to 1000 and it feels smooth and a lot better finish. I think next week I'll get working on the corners and see if I can't add nice edges to it to make it more comfortable in the hand.



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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:53 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:57 pm
Posts: 600
coachnj wrote:At the advice of Taz, I went at the handle today after the getting the lawn in order... Totally a different feel and I really like it. I went from 320 all the way up to 1000 and it feels smooth and a lot better finish. I think next week I'll get working on the corners and see if I can't add nice edges to it to make it more comfortable in the hand.


Care to show a picture of how it comes out at some point? I'd love to see how it looks sanded.


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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:42 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:00 am
Posts: 676
cedarhouse wrote:"OK so its not as sharp as a carbon. But I'm having some problem wrapping my head around this "carbons are a little sharper" thing since I've not tried one. Would that little difference make it any less competent with cutting tomatoes? Can I push cut a tomato vs having to slice it to break the skin?"

The analogy I use is stone aggregate in concrete. Carbon has fewer alloying elements so it has comparatively few and small stones in the mix. As a consequence it abrades to a cleaner edge with less change of hitting a large stone that either sticks out or rips out leaving a depression in the edge. A typical stainless steel has more allying elements, namely chromium, that increases the number and size of the stones. You may be able to work an edge to a high level of refinement, but the material itself resists it more than a more "pure" alloy. It should be noted that manufacturing matters too. Carbides can form and grain size of a pure carbon steel can become large with poor bladesmithing, so a carbon is not necessarily capable of a finer edge.

So in the case of toothiness or bite to pierce a tomato skin, a carbon is not automatically keener than a stainless. A carbon with a 5k edge will have a small amount of tooth. A large grained stainless on the same 5k stone might behave like it has a 3k finish. So when people say carbon is "sharper", they are basically saying the theoretical limit of how keen the edge can get is higher, but also the steel will take a keen edge more quickly and at a higher level of refinement on a given stone than a stainless counterpart.

FWIW, I have read some about this, but if anyone more knowledgeable than I wants to call this description dumb, you won't hurt my feelings.



I like that analogy. I'm gonna steal that :D

Basically an extension and elaboration on what I was saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Goko Hammered Damascus 240mm Gyuto
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:27 am
Posts: 185
Location: Yuma, AZ
So it's a little late but here's a couple pictures of how it looks now. It's smooth as silk and I like it now.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/coachnj/12890338473/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/coachnj/12890690404/

Hope this helps! I need to go deeper to get rid of all the darker wood, but I just sanded to make it smooth not to make it look good.

Thanks
Coachnj



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