It is currently Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:26 am



Welcome
Welcome to chefknivestogo

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. In addition, registered members also see less advertisements. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, join our community today!





 Page 1 of 2 [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:09 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:23 pm
Posts: 9
I have seen knives with layers as few as two up to 45.

What is the practical effect of having more layers? Is it just aesthetic or does it matter in terms of knife performance?

Thanks.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:27 am 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 3849
Location: USA... mostly.
SKIP <> IMO... damascus cladding is simply for its aesthetic benefit. I can think of no practical benefit. Not to mention, true folded damascus steel is much less common than pattern welded "damascus". Laminating a blade in of itself is mostly to cut the cost of using more of the more expensive Hagane (hard steel core), and to a lesser extent to protect the Hagane with a softer more durable shell (jigane) & to make it easier to sharpen.

Employ a cool looking pattern and the sheeple flock with open wallets... :roll:

True folded steel is an awesomely beautiful art, but functionally bereft... again in one man's opinion.



_________________
Embracing the silence amid a life and land full of static...
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:30 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
It's purely aesthetics. Essentially a damascus blade now days is a clad knife, pure and simple. The number of layers just affects how fine the lines are and how many show on the blade and has nothing to do with performance. It sure makes a knife look pretty though! ;)

True damascus steel blades are things of legend now and the layers actually did add strength and toughness to the steel. When I say things of legend I mean of mythic proportions. lol I don't think anyone even makes real damascus steel anymore because they haven't figured out exactly how it was done. There was no core like the damascus kitchen knives we have now contain. The damascus steel was the steel in the blade and what also made up the sharpened edge. Modern blacksmiths use pattern welding (I think it's called) to produce blades with a damascus style finish, but it isn't true damascus steel. So yeah, while the layers mattered at one time, it's all for looks now. :)

LOL, figures... Mel beat me to it.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:10 pm 

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 9:37 pm
Posts: 374
Location: Pensacola, FL, USA
[quote="DefMunky"]It's purely aesthetics. Essentially a damascus blade now days is a clad knife, pure and simple. The number of layers just affects how fine the lines are and how many show on the blade and has nothing to do with performance. It sure makes a knife look pretty though! ;)

True damascus steel blades are things of legend now and the layers actually did add strength and toughness to the steel. When I say things of legend I mean of mythic proportions. lol I don't think anyone even makes real damascus steel anymore because they haven't figured out exactly how it was done. There was no core like the damascus kitchen knives we have now contain. The damascus steel was the steel in the blade and what also made up the sharpened edge. Modern blacksmiths use pattern welding (I think it's called) to produce blades with a damascus style finish, but it isn't true damascus steel. So yeah, while the layers mattered at one time, it's all for looks now. :)

LOL, figures... Mel beat me to it
.[/quote]

You haven't looked very hard or very well or you would have found several bladesmiths who make kitchen knives that are "true" damascus, by your definition. Bob Kramer, Devin Thomas, Will Catcheside, Randy Haas, Aaron Wilburn, Mareko Maumasi and Bill Burke, to name a few off the top of my head. Then there is the Japanese Echizen coreless damascus knife made of folded VG-2 and VG-10. I'm sure there are more.

Now, whether these damascus blades are better than a san mai or monosteel blade in terms of performance is debatable.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:45 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:23 pm
Posts: 9
Rick,

I'm not sure how I deserved such a snotty (snobby?) response (Mel and Def were much more helpful).

I have looked, and nearly everything simply says "Damascus" without distinguishing whether it is "true" Damascus or some other process.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:24 pm 

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 9:37 pm
Posts: 374
Location: Pensacola, FL, USA
Skip60` wrote:Rick,

I'm not sure how I deserved such a snotty (snobby?) response (Mel and Def were much more helpful).

I have looked, and nearly everything simply says "Damascus" without distinguishing whether it is "true" Damascus or some other process.


Skip,

If you look at the context of my post, the reply was to DefMunky's comment about "true" damascus not being made by anyone nowadays, not to your question. Sorry if you didn't pick up on that.

Rick


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:26 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:36 pm
Posts: 2927
Rick was replying to DefMunky....not you Skip.

The term damascus is thrown around rather loosely today.

Damascus, to some, refers to the steel of old made by folding the steel several times. This was done, I believe from what I know, to remove impurities in the steel. It made the steel more pure and thus stronger. As a side effect, the folding left a faint pattern in it. The steel also reportedly originated from the Damascus region. This, I believe, is why the term damascus is oft used to describe any steel with a visible pattern in it.

Today, we have folks like Devin Thomas, Bill Burke, Bob Kramer, et al making pattern welded steel. In some cases, I'm sure smiths still fold and layer the steel. However, in most cases the steel is stacked.....one layer of AEBL then one layer of 302 for instance.....layer after layer. The steel is then heated and pressed together.....i.e. forge welding. In some cases, they are pounded out, cut, and relayered. If this is done, or how many times, depends on the pattern they're after. What comes next depends on the pattern the smith is after. Presses are used, rolling mills, etc.

This damascus can then be used to make knives. It can be used as the cladding of a steel like you see in the Shun Classic knives, for instance......or it can be used as the entire blade where the cutting edge is the damascus steel. This can be done in both factories and in hand made knives.

The benefits of damascus as a cutting edge versus a mono-steel cutting edge could be debated for all time. It is different, that's for sure....but better/worse.....good luck getting everyone to agree on that one. :)

The benefits of damascus as a cladding would be no different than any other cladding material except that it can be prettier to some. Cladding a core steel for a kitchen knife is also a debatable subject.....what, if any, benefit it provides is another thing you'll never get everyone to agree on.

I reckon I'm starting to ramble.

If you have any questions....please feel free to ask.



_________________
Adam

Image
http://marrknives.com
http://facebook.com/marrknives
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:15 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
Rick: The true damascus I was referring to was not just the folded steel we have today. Scientists have found nanowires and nanotubes in the original damascus steels (adding flexibility with hardness) which was believed to have been caused by their use of plant matter to add carbon to the blades. I have no doubts that current steels are much better in performance and the current folded steel blades might even be better because of that, but for their time damascus steels were amazing in their performance and have yet to be successfully reproduced.

Of course this strays from the topic quite a bit and really isn't something worth arguing about. I have just always found it to be an interesting subject which was why I brought it up in the first place. lol ;)


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:35 pm 

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 9:37 pm
Posts: 374
Location: Pensacola, FL, USA
DefMunky wrote:Rick: The true damascus I was referring to was not just the folded steel we have today. Scientists have found nanowires and nanotubes in the original damascus steels (adding flexibility with hardness) which was believed to have been caused by their use of plant matter to add carbon to the blades. I have no doubts that current steels are much better in performance and the current folded steel blades might even be better because of that, but for their time damascus steels were amazing in their performance and have yet to be successfully reproduced.

Of course this strays from the topic quite a bit and really isn't something worth arguing about. I have just always found it to be an interesting subject which was why I brought it up in the first place. lol ;)


Your description sounds like wootz or tamahagane steel. IIRC, some swordsmiths have smelted tamahagane in the traditional method, and forged katanas from the result. I don't know if the steel was examined for nano wires and tubes, but it's a very intriguing (and expensive) steel making method.

Rick


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Damascus layers -- does it matter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:30 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:23 pm
Posts: 9
I just got quite an education on Damascus. Thanks all (and sorry, Rick, for misunderstanding your elbowing of your friend).

Great expertise on this forum.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 2 [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


suspicion-preferred