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 Post subject: Re: Starting a sharpening business with an edge pro.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 662
Noneck,

So far the advice provided by Mark was spot on, such as no need to bother with the strop but it's OK to play with either loaded or not. And Sadden and DefMunky correctly pointed out that an unloaded strop does have subtle abrasive qualities. However, it was you who brought up the most confusing of sharpening myths and wives tales, the dreaded over sharpening. We don't need to send our new friend down that rat hole.

I think our pedaling peddler of sharpening will do just fine with the EP kit recommended and learn through experience what finish level is ideal for his customers needs.

Eventually he may wish to provide added value to the customer by offering an appropriate steel and/or strop to his customer base in order for them to maintain edges between his sharpenings.

Cheers,

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Starting a sharpening business with an edge pro.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:30 am 

Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 12:17 am
Posts: 131
Rick,

I know what I am talking about, your pissing me off. Yes, people sharpen until it's dull/ rolled edge, because you can't keep EXACTLY the same angle using 10 different abrasives. I give advice that is correct, and is well known by many good sharpeners. If you guys want strop on an unloaded piece of leather, "Sheepskin" for example used to wash vehicles because it has no abrasion ability that's fine. Leather is used to hold polish that is less than a micron which will cut when applied and won't when it's not.
What micron is your leather? if you want to get scientific. Maybe go sharpen some more instead of telling me what to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Starting a sharpening business with an edge pro.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:57 am 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 6:39 pm
Posts: 258
Well my thought on the matter is that sure you can oversharpen a knife on a given stone. Say you can only get such a good edge on a 1k stone , and anything beyond that without moving along to a finer stone is oversharpening in that your removing unnecessary metal without gaining a sharper edge. But the thought that somehow eventually you will start degrading the edge is incorrect. Given you have decent technique. If you have poor technique your not going to get that great of an edge in the first place so it is kind of a moot point. And this is on the edge pro so holding a constant angle is not really on the radar anyways , given you have a knife that doesn't want to wobble. And if you do there are things you can do about that.

In regards to stropping , well the silicates found in leather do abrade metal. Its just a fact and not one that is really worth squabbling over. It plays a minor role compared to adding a compound to a strop. But a bare strop does in fact remove metal. Also leather strops can be used on compounds much coarser than 1u. I use Smooth Roo for compound as coarse as 15u CBN , and have 3 rough side Roo strops coming from Ken to use with 30u , 45u and 80u CBN. This is going to be more on the fringe as no one else has gone that far yet so I will be the first. And I will be reporting back when I have that data.

Then we can also talk about the "burnishing" effect that leather seems to have on knives that other substrates tend to lack. But that is a whole nother thread.



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 Post subject: Re: Starting a sharpening business with an edge pro.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:44 am 

Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 12:17 am
Posts: 131
Knife shapes make it impossible to keep the same angle. Also there is 1 degree difference between the right and left side on the E.P. this is basic trigonometry. Not sure on the pro model, because of the rotating rod end bearing and it is centered on the table. Anyway I am done giving my advice, when there are far better sharpeners with the E.P than me. Just some knives I did last week in my spare time..How long have you had your E.P now 6 months? and your a pro.. :roll:
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 Post subject: Re: Starting a sharpening business with an edge pro.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:58 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:16 am
Posts: 5
Hi everybody and thank you for all the advice!

I'm just starting with the "science of sharpening" and am learning quite fast... But I still have many misconceptions.

I have ordered the Full Monty kit to start with, I hope it will be a good enough basis to start climbing the learning curve on.

I'm mostly concerned about the deburring part and the possibility of a wire edge.

Are these problems visible under a microscope?

Also, why would one de-burr on strops with compounds instead of just running the knife through a cork or something simmilar between every stone?

I understand that with each harder stone the burr will become smaller and smaller, but why not just remove it completely betwen every stone?

Thank you all!

Borut


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 Post subject: Re: Starting a sharpening business with an edge pro.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:56 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:10 pm
Posts: 181
SoulFood wrote:
...

I'm mostly concerned about the deburring part and the possibility of a wire edge.

Are these problems visible under a microscope?

...


Yes. A microscope, especially for the newbie, is an easy way to judge your progress and to figure out what is wrong with the edge.

A scope will show you
1 - a good burr does not necessarily mean all the scratches from the previous stone have been removed
2 - if the scratches are going all the way to the edge.
3 - how consistently smooth the edge really is, i.e., where are the edge's problem areas

The video "The Secret To Improving Your Razor And Knife Edges" is an excellent explanation of the benefits and use of a microscope:


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 Post subject: Re: Starting a sharpening business with an edge pro.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
SoulFood wrote:... why would one de-burr on strops with compounds instead of just running the knife through a cork or something simmilar between every stone?

I understand that with each harder stone the burr will become smaller and smaller, but why not just remove it completely betwen every stone?


You can most certainly remove a bur with finer stones, and once they are fine enough you might be hard pressed to even find a burr. You can even strop a knife with a very fine stone, it doesn't have to be a loaded or unloaded strop. Burr removal this way is more of a polishing action, versus breaking the burr off by running it through wood or felt. Essentially the cork, wood, felt, etc. catches the burr and rips it off. Stropping, like most everything else concerning sharpening, is personal opinion and preference. I personally prefer to strop my knives on a loaded strop even if there isn't a burr present. To me it just makes the edge cleaner and makes the "teeth" on the edge not so rough so it makes a smoother cut. I also don't remove the burr or strop between every stone either. Stropping is what I do to finish my blades with and to keep them keen between sharpening sessions.

If you want to strop, by all means strop. If you don't see the need, then you don't have to. There is no wrong way, unless of course your trying to sharpen a knife by running it 90 degrees to the stone... yeah, that won't work... ;) lol


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 Post subject: Re: Starting a sharpening business with an edge pro.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 6:39 pm
Posts: 258
noneck180 wrote:...

I would direct you to Lagrangians write up: "Geometry and Kinematics of Guided-Rod Sharpeners" its a well written article by someone much smarter than myself.

I can show a crappy picture of all the knives I have done in the past week too... what is your point? I prefer to put up high quality pictures of one or two knives with matching micrographs..

SoulFood wrote:...

Well in your case I would primarily concerned with creating a burr , if your like the rest of us with the EP you will be some time working on your own knives as there will probably be little or no bevel left. Every single one of my knives was over an hour on the first sharpenings. Once you are consistently raising a burr across the entire knife you can work on taking it down.

Now you ask some good questions. I prefer to abrade the burr off as opposed to ripping it off via cork or felt. I find that ripping the burrs off in these ways left more of a jagged edge than one would prefer at any given grit. By abrading it off your cleanly apexing the edge and getting the most out any specific stone. Some people on this forum use that technique , such as MadRookie , but if you watch after he breaks off the burr he goes back and uses edge leading strokes for a couple passes. This would allow him to get all the cleaness at the very edge of the edge that we are looking for without risking raising a new burr. Which is a perfectly valid technique.

dougmc wrote:...

Great post Dr.matt does some great videos , everyone can learn a lot from him.

defmunky wrote:...

8-)



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 Post subject: Re: Starting a sharpening business with an edge pro.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:34 pm
Posts: 1506
Just one quick stick about the work "oversharpening"....I think that term is being wrongly used in the place of "human error." Razor honing, when you are doing over 100 strokes on each side, does not suffer from this phenomena. If you have a guide there is no change in angle, and the only "oversharpening" that will occur is if you exceed the capabilities of the steel or work on one side for too long and roll the edge.

However, the argument of adding more stones into the equation does increase the odds of human error.

Now, about tone next times guys, and I'm making sure this is seen publicly, but there will be no fighting tolerated, you handle that stuff privately or notify a mod. I will not warn again.



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