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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:17 am
Posts: 4605
It is an addiction and those aren't your last J-knives.......trust me! :mrgreen: And I agree, that Goko is a cool knife!



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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:25 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:20 am
Posts: 2094
I just recently pushed past the $150 threshold and wow, there are some fun things there. The Goko is still on my bucket list.

That said, the Murata looks like a fun choice. I am biased toward knives with character, kurouchi finishes, hand hammered knives, etc. The Kaneshige might likely out perform the Murata, but....

I have Tanaka kurouchi nakiri, I understand that the grind is different from the gyuto, but the Tanaka can keep pace with knives twice it's price, so I wouldn't rule that out, but it might be nice to see if anyone owns the gyuto and can comment on it.

I also have the Tojiro ITK 150mm petty. The ITK, assuming similar grinds etc, are a bit thick all the way through, and the kurouchi finish is pretty abrasive. I actually sanded mine off, I like the knife better now. It is a good knife, but given your looking for a smooth finish, this might not be ideal.


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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:58 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
Yeah, I had read the kurouchi finish was rough on the ITKs and that they were more reactive somehow than the Yamashins even though they both use white #1. That was one of the reasons I went with the Yamashins.

The Tanaka kurouchi knives look like excellent knives. Knife Fanatic has a vid on the gyuto and seemed pretty impressed with it. He never says anything bad about the knives (which is good and I totally understand, lol), but he did seem to like this one. He even gave a "wow" a couple of times when chopping an onion. lol

I totally agree about the kurouchi, hammered, and "unfinished" finishes. To me it is what makes the Yamashins intriguing to look at. It isn't a make or break thing for me, but it is a plus if it doesn't interfere with performance. lol Some of these knives with the kurouchi finish look very smooth so I don't think it would interfere with performance at all. The Masakage Mizu series is one that comes to mind. Not to mention their knives are beautiful. lol

I am loving the handle on the Buho gyuto though, and I'd love to know more about the edge and how to care for it. In the vid Jason (I think that is his name) did he didn't mention anything about the concavity on one side. I would think that makes it more of a single bevel knife and would make the edge a little keener. I did see with his vid that he didn't seem to have any problems with the blade steering on him.

Zakuri also has some very nice looking blue #1 knives. The handles look really nice on them as well and they are stretching the top end of the imposed budget.

But yeah, regardless of price, Mark has too many knives to offer! How dare you, Sir! :P lol

Ok, now that I have a few good choices in my preferred price range, let's change it up a bit...

If I could swing $150 to $200, what would some suggestions be other than Goko or another white #1 knife?

To me the Kohetsu knives with the aogami super steel look like great sub-$200 knives. The blades are plain, yes, but they look like they would be great performers for the price. The Maskage Mizo series looks very nice for the price as well, and they have a kurouchi-like finish.


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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:24 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
If it weren't out of stock, a Richmond laser in aogami super looks like it would cut well enough to bring a tear to the eye judging by Knife Fanatic's vid. lol

With the stainless cladding and line above the blade, it definitely has some character as well for $200.


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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:00 pm
Posts: 2476
OK DefMunky - now stuff starts getting really interesting :-).

If you're looking at the Mizu, I'd recommend the Anryu Kurouchi 210: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kaankusugy21.html over the Mizu. Same blacksmith, but better handle and I think it looks like a nicer finish.

The Tanaka Sekiso Damascus 210 is really nice: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tanakagyuto2.html. It's all carbon, but has great grinds and Blue #2 steel.

Another slightly out of the box knife for you is the Sakai Takayuki Damascus Wa-Gyuto 210: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/satadagy210.html. It's really a cool looking knife in person - light, thin, all stainless, easy to sharpen, etc. etc.

Another nice knife (210 is out of stock at the moment), Itto-Ryu Hammered Gyuto 240 White #1: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/ithagy240.html.

And don't forget Moritaka Supreme 210 Gyuto: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/moritaka9.html. It's got the Aogami Super core steel for a long lasting edge. Light, thin, rustic, with a really nice Kurouchi finish.

And of course the Goko 210 and 240 are damn nice blades. I wouldn't worry quite so much about which core steel, but focus more on the other aspects: grind, geometry, edge profile, weight, fit & finish, the look, etc. The exception might be if you want AS carbon, since it holds the edge longer than most steels and can take pretty steep edge angles as well.

I'm sure there are other viable option in this higher price range. Just my .02.

Just saw your post - if the Laser AS 210 come back in stock - that would be a spectacular choice as well. Start a separate post and ask Mark when he's expecting them - you never know :-).


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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:37 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
I'm not against white #1, I just already have a couple of knives with now. Just looking to add a little variety and try out another steel is all. lol

Though to be fair, the same steel done by different companies can behave a little differently depending on how it is treated, but overall I'm thinking it should be mostly the same.

Edge retention isn't a big issue for me as I'm not hard on my knives at all. My cheap knives only had to be sharpened a few to several times over the years and steeled back into shape every few uses. I'm pretty sure even the white #1 would keep an edge longer than any of my other knives. Ease of sharpening is pretty important to me though. So while it doesn't have to be as easy as white #1, I don't want something that is gonna need a diamond grinding wheel to sharpen either. lol I'm sure nothing here is that severe, but you know what I mean... hopefully... lol

If I were to get another white #1 knife, I think it would have to be one of the Goko gyutos. Those look freakin' awesome. lol The semi-polished rough look, the really nice looking handles... yeah, nice looking knives that seem to handle as good as they look... ;)

If I can go up to the price of it, I may just have to forget the self-imposed white #1 limitation. The Goko just calls to me. I guess if that happens I'll get my next knife afterwards in something other than white #1... :P

I'll have a look at your list though and have a look at the other options. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:15 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
Oh wow... those are some seriously nice looking knives! I think my faves are the Anryu kurouchi (kurouchi AND damascus??? Really?!?! lol), the Sakai Takayuki hammered damascus (looks like ripples on clear water in the pic, gorgeous knife), and the Itto-Ryu hammered kurouchi.


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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:44 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:20 am
Posts: 2094
I just received the Anryu hand hammered a few weeks ago...it is my new favorite knife. If the Anryu kurouchi is anywhere near, it will be a winner.

Full disclosure, when I picked up the Anryu my list was:
Masakage Yuki
Tanaka Sekiso
Moritaka AS
Richmond Laser AS
Itto-Ryu
Goko

I have not handled any of these, so I don't know that the Anryu is any better, but there is a lot of overlap with Steve's list.

Have fun :)


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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:58 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
I'm sure that at my current level experience with these knives, I am sure I will be extremely happy with whatever I get regardless the price. As I get more time with the blades I might form more opinions on the knives and develop a favorite, but for now I don't see myself being disappointed with any of these knives. Heck, I'm still REALLY impressed with the Yamashins! After stropping the protective varnish off the edge (and probably refining it a little in the process) both of them were blazing sharp OOTB. Clean shaving, paper chopping (not slicing, chopping, lol), easy slicing sharp. A bit toothy with a nice bite, but that's how I like it. Before stropping the edges clean they were "meh". lol I may strop the sides of the knife as well to remove the rest of the clear coat, or just use a scrubber, but I don't want to remove the kurouchi finish prematurely. The blades look really nice with it on there.

If a $50 ko bocho and $60 santoku can make me this happy, I don't know if I can live with myself after getting a $100 or more knife... LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Inexpensive Gyuto opions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:00 pm
Posts: 2476
DefMunky - My advice, FWIW, is to keep putting the Yamashins to work and then evaluate what you'd be looking for in a larger and/or higher-end knife.

What do you like/dislike about the Yamashins after some use?

How do they work, dicing onions? This is a fairly good test of the front 1/3 and tip of a blade (assuming it's sharp).

Do you like the edge profile during use?

How do you cut product - push cut, push-glide, rocking, chopping, etc.? This can influence what type of edge profile you might best suit your style.

Are you looking for a very light, thin laser type knife, or more of a middle weight with some backbone and very thin at the edge?

Do you already have a longer (9"-10") knife for tougher tasks that can take some abuse? A Wusthof, Henckels, Victorinox, etc.

I don't know the balance point on your Yamashin Santoku, but think about your grip - do you pinch grip or use a racket style grip? This can dictate whether you want a knife with balance point nearer to the handle or more weight forward. They can vary considerably.

I'm sure there's more that others can add, but thinking about these things while using your existing knives will help pinpoint what might work best for you on a more expensive purchase - helping to get it right the first time.

These knives are all really good, but they have different characteristics - we want to help find one that fits you to a tee :-).

If you have the room in your kitchen and on your cutting board, I'm still going to suggest a hard look at 240mm Gyutos. I'm afraid that a 210 might not be enough of a jump from your 165 Santoku. If you like the flatter blade profile of the Santoku and it fits your cutting style, then you should look at a flatter 210 or a 240, as they usually have a longer sweet spot for push cutting. It also depends on the size of the products that you prepare as to what size Gyuto might be best.


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