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 Post subject: Sharpening gear adding to my chosera 10K
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:18 pm
Posts: 7670
Location: Madison Wisconsin
Hello,

I recently purchased a Miyabi 10,000 Grit wet stone, which I understand from reading online is really just a rebranded Chosera Stone. Obviously, that grit is too high to have as a single stone (I got the stone on sale and really didn't know what I was purchasing), so I would like some recommendations as to what other grit stones I should get.

I was thinking I may as well stick with Chosera, since they seem to be well reviewed, but again I am open to suggestions. So I was thinking maybe a 400 grit stone and a 1000 grit stone, perhaps. Generally, I am using the stone for sharpening kitchen knives, but ideally I would like to be able to use the stones for all my knives.

Further, I would like a recommendation as to the best way use the Chosera stones. I thought the sink bridge might be a good bet. Any thoughts on that? I'm note clear if I get the sink bridge, if I also need to get a stone holder for the stone to sit in?

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/nasibr.html

Also, I am curious what I need to do for stone upkeep. After using the 10,000 Chosera, I notice that it has built up a black coloration all over the side I sharpen on and also now has a mirrored surface. Is there something that I should do to prevent that, perhaps the Nagura stone?

Admittedly, a bit of a novice when it comes to sharpening knives, but I do like to take good care of my knives, very much appreciate a sharp blade. Any recommendations would be much appreciated. Finally, for a novice, do you recommend purchasing one of those guides to help maintain the angle while sharpening. It looks pretty gimmiky, but I am open to any ideas.

Thanks very much for your time.

Regards,

Nicholas



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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening gear adding to my chosera 10K
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:18 pm
Posts: 7670
Location: Madison Wisconsin
Hi Nicholas,

Yes you are correct. Henckels makes the Miyabi brand and they stuck their name on the Naniwa choseras so you did get the 10K chosera.

Basically you need a rough stone and a middle grit stone to make a descent set and you can use your 10k as the final finishing stone.

So, since you have the 10k here is what I would recommend you purchase.

Chosera 400 http://www.chefknivestogo.com/ch400grstwib.html
Chosera 2K (or 1K) http://www.chefknivestogo.com/nach200grshs.html
DMT XXC Flattening Plate http://www.chefknivestogo.com/dmtextracoarse.html
Holder (I use the naniwa sink bridge) http://www.chefknivestogo.com/nasibr.html

You want to use the 400 first, 2K second and then the 10k last. You want to flatten your stones which will clean off the black stuff you mentioned which is metal deposits mixed with the stone residue. Flat stones work better since you can get a more precise edge angle if they are flat. I usually flatten mine every third or forth knife I sharpen on the low grit stones and less on the high grit stones since they wear more slowly.

If you have more questions please post here and we'll be happy to get you up and running. Our whole forum was made to help guys that are just learning so please ask away!



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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening gear adding to my chosera 10K
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:33 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 2
Thanks Mark,

Just a few additional questions:

(1) Any particular reason you reccommend the 2K over the 1K. I am happy to go with that, but I just want to make sure I'm getting the best combination. (There were more reviews on your site for the 1K stone that suggested it was a good middle-of-the-road stone, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. The only review for the 2K was that it was an "oddball" stone amoungst the rest of the line, but that it was otherwise a great stone.)

(2) I would like to be able to use the stones for sharpening knives other than kitchen knives (I have a Bark River Golok for instance that is really nice steel, but is about 16," which I would like to be able to use with the stones. http://www.knivesshipfree.com/golok/?sort=alphaasc ) Are the stones appropriate for use with all types of blades (i.e. kitchen blades and non-kitchen blades, alike)

(3) Is there anything that I need to get along with the chosera stones for use with the sink bridge? I see that in some of the videos the DMT non-stick pad is used http://www.chefknivestogo.com/dmtnonskidmat.html and in others thesome sort of stone holder seems to be used. Perpahs the stone holder is just connected to the stone.

(4) Finally, is there any reason that I need to get a sharpening guide, such as the Super Togeru Sharpening Guide. It seems like its likely unnecessary, but I just wanted to confirm.

Thanks again for your time.

Regards,


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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening gear adding to my chosera 10K
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:27 pm 
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Location: Madison Wisconsin
It's kind of a toss up between the 1k and 2k. I like the 2k and it will provide you with a good usable edge if you want to stop there. It will also work a little better with the 10k you own.

Sure they will work fine for your other stuff.

Nah the sink bridge is all you need.

The sharpening guides are like training wheels on a bike. Usually it's best to just go for it since you must learn to draw the blade back and forth without changing the angle of the knife to the stone and an angle guide just delays you getting used to this. It also sucks when sharpening the belly of the knife so blow it off.



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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening gear adding to my chosera 10K
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:22 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:12 pm
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Thanks Mark. I received the stones, and took my first sharpening attempt last night (400, 2000, 10000) It was not terribly successful, as I think my sharpening angle was too slight. I know I am shooting for 15-17 degree for the Shun knives I'm trying to sharpen. I ended up with a lot of scuffing further up on the blade from the edge, which suggests I need a bigger angle. Any advice? I heard the angle should be the equivalent of 2 coins?

Also, the knife I was attempting to sharpen (a Shun Chefs Knife) was already in pretty bad shap with lots of chips along the blade (not from this sharpening, but from previous usage of the knife). I thought a good amount of time with the 400 grit might take out the chips, but no luck. Would the DMT XXC Flattening Plate be too harsh to attempt to get back to an even edge?

Also, I have a global knife with a convex edge. Sould I try and keep that convex edge with a special sharpening technique, or just flatten it out?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening gear adding to my chosera 10K
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:50 am 
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Paint the edge with sharpie. Make a swipe and see what sharpie is removed. Adust accorsingly. Do some reading here and learn about the burr. Go to the 400 and when you remove the sharpei correctly sharpen until you form a burr down the entire edge. Swap sides and repeat. Then move to your next stone.



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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening gear adding to my chosera 10K
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:01 am 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
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Shun knives are not very hard so the 400 should cut it quickly, if its real bad then the XXC might be a good idea. I would work a little higher angle with the XXC then set the bevel at the angle you want with the 400.


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 Post subject: Re: Sharpening gear adding to my chosera 10K
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:12 am 
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Sharpening knives like your Golok with a convex edge using a guide is a distinctly BAD idea. In general you will find that clip on guide a bad idea and for a thicker knife, I doubt you could even clip it on. Pass on it.

For stone holding, the bridge is nice. I usually use a stone holder and lay this across a home made bridge. If I hadn't made one, the bridge on the CKTG site is a good thing. Sharpening over a sink is something I prefer to do. The mess and water overflow go down the sink rather than all over a workbench.

For a Shun something in the range of 16 degrees is fine. More acute isn't ideal for that steel (VG-10)

I would suggest setting or resetting the initial bevel angle with your DMT XXC (or Atoma 140, my favorite), and following it with a Nubatama 150 to get things going. Take your chips out too with the 150.

Converting a convex grind to a flat grind is IMO a matter of personal taste. For your Golok, keep it convex. It's a heavy duty chopper. For the Global, don't go with too acute of an angle as the steel is pretty mushy. Just so long as the angle isn't too acute, convex vs flat isn't real important here. It doesn't really have to be one or the other - in truth you can go from very flat to very convex. Just remember than flat grinds are better at cutting but more delicate (generalization).

You can sharpen a convex edge with a flat stone. Freehand edges are not truly flat grinds, even when that's the goal. For a purposely convex grind on a stone, bring the knife to the stone in an edge leading stroke until you feel it grabbing the stone GENTLY. Then use this angle to get to the edge of the edge but bring it up to this maximum angle in a sweep to follow the convex grind. If you go just behind this maximum angle you will thin the convex grind. If you go past it, you will make the edge of the edge less acute and more blunt. It takes practice. The coin trick is awkward at best and if the blade is wide 2 coins is more acute, narrow less acute. If you are serious about angles get an angle cube.

Be careful with softer stones as you can cut into the stone - just like a strop. Until you get more used to using stones, just do edge trailing strokes. Muddier stones will favor convex grinds as they are more forgiving however.

I don't think going from a 1k stone to a 10k stone is a good idea - or even a 2k stone to a 10k stone. Consider a 5k stone inbetween. Otherwise you will just be wearing out your 10k prematurely.

Learn to use the sharpie and get some cheap magnification - a loupe - and you will develop skill much quicker.

---
Ken



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