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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:45 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:18 pm
Posts: 337
Patina is a matter of personal preference. Some folks (including the Japanese) don't care for it, and keep their blades looking new. Others force a patina or let one develop naturally. Some people think, with the mix of various blues, grays, purples, and other colors, that they look cool.

There is generally less reactivity with food AFTER a patina develops, so I think thre isn't really an issue of the patina transferring to food--they're generally stable after they develop. I've had more concerns about new blades (or freshly cleaned ones) that are more likely to react with food.

And there are ways to clean off the patina if someone thinks it needs to be removed, whether that is frequently or infrequently.


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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:41 pm 
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toddnmd wrote:"There is generally less reactivity with food AFTER a patina develops, so I think there isn't really an issue of the patina transferring to food--they're generally stable after they develop. I've had more concerns about new blades (or freshly cleaned ones) that are more likely to react with food."

EXACTLY, correct. A developed patina serves a purpose beyond aesthestics; it minimizes food reactivity. A fresh, nude, bare reactive steel transfers flavor quickly... in most (not all) situations.

I am fighting with a ni-mai shironiko right now that just will not patina. It STINKS like no other carbon I've ever encountered, reacts with some foods like I've never seen before, but is still stubborn as hell to oxidize naturally. IT'S SO PHUCKIN SLOW! :evil: Pineapple... in the garbage. Crenshaw melon... in the garbage. Cucumbers... in the garbage. Watermelon... in the garbage. Onions... zero discoloration (go figure :x ).



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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:52 pm 
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Patina is patina (oxidization). I'm positive that I can smell it on carbon knives, when it starts to develop. If I can smell it, I don't want it.
Patina, imo, is a western thing...that has 'become' something cool...(to look at)...and 'touted' as being something desirable because of it's protective feature. bull**** - cough.

Thoughts? If you like the damascus look....get a damascus knife.

A necessary (protective) evil? I don't buy that story. It's simply too difficult to stop it from happening, for most.

In fact, (as far as I've read)...it's not allowed in quite a few restaurants in Japan, and is generally thought of as 'dirty'.

Buy a three thousand dollar honyaki sushi knife...and let it patina to protect it?



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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:57 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 157
I know this all too well...didn't have time the other day to finish ordering the Richmond AS Laser and lost out as it is sold out I guess? Anyone know about this or have any extra?


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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:03 pm 
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Posts: 125
Location: VA, USA
Charcuterie wrote:I know this all too well...didn't have time the other day to finish ordering the Richmond AS Laser and lost out as it is sold out I guess? Anyone know about this or have any extra?


I have one for sale in the classifieds......................



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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Just wanted to chime in here. Regardless if you keep the patina or not, the patina DOES slow down reactivity and significantly reduces the odor of the steel (once it is formed). I have NEVER seen a patina increase odor on a knife. The only time I see getting rid of patina as desirable is if I paid 1,000 for a mirror-polished knife; letting a patina form would defeat the purpose of the mirror finish and why I paid all that money.

Even stainless steel needs a patina sometimes. The process is called "passivation." A thin patina is chemically forced onto the surface of the steel to reduce reactivity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation_(chemistry) There's even some Youtube vids on it if I'm not mistaken. ;)

I can not dispute the fact that some Japanese restaurants don't like patina, but to think of a patina as dirty is silly IMO. That's something that a customer might see, nothing more. Patina is not reactive and does not come off. But, by all means, if you want to keep your knives nice and shiney then do so if you like. Great choice of knives and stones BTW, hope they serve you well. :D



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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Location: Boston, MA
"Researchers find the smell of metal can be deceiving"
http://phys.org/news82229855.html


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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:53 am 
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Knife Fanatic wrote: "Just wanted to chime in here. Regardless if you keep the patina or not, the patina DOES slow down reactivity and significantly reduces the odor of the steel (once it is formed). I have NEVER seen a patina increase odor on a knife. The only time I see getting rid of patina as desirable is if I paid 1,000 for a mirror-polished knife; letting a patina form would defeat the purpose of the mirror finish and why I paid all that money.

Even stainless steel needs a patina sometimes. The process is called "passivation." A thin patina is chemically forced onto the surface of the steel to reduce reactivity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation_(chemistry) There's even some Youtube vids on it if I'm not mistaken. ;)

I can not dispute the fact that some Japanese restaurants don't like patina, but to think of a patina as dirty is silly IMO. That's something that a customer might see, nothing more. Patina is not reactive and does not come off. But, by all means, if you want to keep your knives nice and shiney then do so if you like. Great choice of knives and stones BTW, hope they serve you well. :D"


:) Well, whatever it is...it looks dirty to me and I don't like it. If a guy wants to let his new $300 knife turn black, all the power to him. I really like the practice of wiping the knife on a wet towel while cutting. It slows the reactivity drastically and acts sorta like a lubricant; water and cutting with a carbon knife = best friends. :D ...and I don't at all mind the subtle polishing away of the slight bit of patina that did form regardless, as it's easy to get rid of...and the knife stays looking fantastic! Another plus...

I also shouldn't post at night after drinking 5 beer, but hey, what can you do!



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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:13 am 
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This thread drifted a bit, but I always love it when a thread I start on any forum sparks discussion that goes on for several pages. It makes me feel...special. :roll:

To each their own. Some people will like patina, some won't. I personally like it. Some of my favorite knives from the distant past were some old, unknown brand and unmarked, cheap carbon steel knives my ex-wife had with a nice brown patina that took a nice edge and cut nicely.

Patina is probably akin to conditioning cast iron cookware. The conditioning is multiple layers of hard oils that smooth out the peaks and valleys of the iron, keep food from sticking, and protect the iron from rusting.

My knives have already started to form a little patina. Shirogami #1 is reactive, and Aogami Super has just a little chromium in it. The Konosuke is an absolutely beautiful knife that belongs in a museum, and cuts and handles like a dream. The Masakage is equally beautiful in its own way, with a rather stunning San Mai finish, and cuts like a demon. Both are balanced right at the pinch point. Now I have to learn how to use water stones after all these years of diamond hones and a black hard Arkansas stone.

Life is a learning experience, and I always reserve the right to change my mind based on new information, or to learn from my screwups or lack of experience. Like which side of a saya is "up" :oops: or that, fortunately enough, Shirogami is tough enough to cut through an avocado seed without looking like that infamous Aogami Super Gyuto with the apple-sized chunk taken out of the blade.



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 Post subject: Re: He who hesitates...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:19 am 
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And BTW, the Konosuke was $405, not $300, and worth every penny. The shiny blade is quite beautiful, but with a little patina, it will be a still beautiful knife with character. It's like the difference between a house that's like a museum, where you're afraid to touch or sit on anything, and a home that's cozy and warm.



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