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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:17 am
Posts: 4717
Maybe a 240mm but at 210mm I'd buy an AEB-L Artifex for $75 first.



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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:12 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:34 pm
Posts: 164
If they are ground thinner behind the edge than the artifex I think great idea.



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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:44 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:13 am
Posts: 36
That's a damn good price Mark, but that seems like an awful lot of product to move. Then again, I really don't know what your business does in sales either so take that with a grain of salt. I do know some chefs, including myself, who swear by Shuns though. If you can compete there in aesthetics and performance, without the premium price, you might have a winner.

What about something similar in this new fan-dangled HAP40?


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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:20 am 
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Location: USA... mostly.
At that price point, I can't see how they wouldn't fly.

People love damascus, and black micarta is an aesthetically pleasing complement. You know better than anyone... the masses buy with their eyes.



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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:02 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:29 am
Posts: 625
Location: Philippines
as with any steels, heat treat is more important than any type of knife steel. if you have a good profile, a good grind, and great heat treat, that makes an even better knife with an exotic knife steel with crap heat treat.

=D


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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:46 pm
Posts: 217
You guys think a VG-10 gyuto with damascus cladding and micarta handle would sell if I offered it for $75? I've been toying with doing these. Trying to get them to do the shape like the KS. It's been a heavy lift. They wan't me to buy a thousand to get that price.

The underlying question is whether Richmond should come up with an initial outlay of around $40K, entirely on spec, to make the knife.

As a purely financial question, the answer is contingent on a number of things, so if you want real advice as opposed to cheer-leading you're going to have to give up some information. For instance, I'd really like to know something about Artifex and other Richmond sales before saying "do it." Who's going to make the knife for you? Since it's Takefu steel, we're talking a Japanese OEM maker and not Lamson? Probably not a bad thing because as a threshold consideration you're going to have to do better F&F than current Richmond/Lamson standards. Also to sell knives in numbers, they'll have to come with good and consistent sharpness out of the box; can you do it in numbers? What about crowning spines and "choils?" So many people get the h/t wrong, what makes you think you won't? Y'know... stuff like that.

Just from the outside looking in, with my nose pressed against the glass, it seems you've got enough going for you to sell that knife. Whether or not cladded VG-10 is the best choice of alloys is another question. It would probably sell well, but I wouldn't want to have my name on it. VG-1 might be better.

A line of knives with enough different profiles to make up a "roll set" for the student or professional, and a "block set" for the home; using a quality stainless alloy (G3?), with friendly Micarta handles (oval, not too skinny); built around cloned Sabatier profiles, and priced consistently with a sub $100 for the 10" chef's would kick ass.

We should talk.

BDL


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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:29 am
Posts: 625
Location: Philippines
i'd be pretty stoked to see these new vg-10 knives of yours mark.


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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:27 pm 
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BDL posted - "A line of knives with enough different profiles to make up a "roll set" for the student or professional, and a "block set" for the home; using a quality stainless alloy (G3?), with friendly Micarta handles (oval, not too skinny); built around cloned Sabatier profiles, and priced consistently with a sub $100 for the 10" chef's would kick ass."

BDL, purely from my somewhat limited point of view compared to yours, doesn't Mark already have the makings of this in his Artifex line? Are you talking about a design that's more targeted cosmetically at the masses, like something you'd see in SLT or BB&B? Is fit and finish your main issue with the Artifex? I greatly respect your experience and well articulated thoughts/opinions. I'm just curious how your proposed lineup would differentiate itself from the current Artifex line.

I understand that the Artifex design is a bit utilitarian looking where the steel and blade is the star. I actually think that the linen micarta handles looked better with a bit more sophistication than the current G10 handle material. My seat of the pants feeling is that G10 seems a bit heavier as well - at least in my Artifex 210 AEB-L w/micarta vs. my Artifex 210 52100 w/G10.

I totally agree about OOTB sharpness and crowning spines/choils - I purchased a Tojiro DP 210 Gyuto and was disappointed that the spine and especially the choil had very sharp corners. IMO entry level users should not be expected to get out sandpaper and modify a knife blade in order to make it comfortable during use. That is one hallmark of the Artifex, the nice crowning on the blades.

Thanks BDL,
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:46 pm
Posts: 217
HRH Mark Richmond wrote:You guys think a VG-10 gyuto with damascus cladding and micarta handle would sell if I offered it for $75? I've been toying with doing these. Trying to get them to do the shape like the KS. It's been a heavy lift. They wan't me to buy a thousand to get that price.

The underlying question is whether Richmond should come up with an initial outlay of around $40K, entirely on spec, to make the knife.

As a purely financial question, the answer is contingent on a number of things, so if you want real advice as opposed to cheer-leading you're going to have to give up some information. For instance, I'd really like to know something about Artifex and other Richmond sales before saying "do it." Who's going to make the knife for you? Since it's Takefu steel, we're talking a Japanese OEM maker and not Lamson? Probably not a bad thing because as a threshold consideration you're going to have to do better F&F than current Richmond/Lamson standards. Also to sell knives in numbers, they'll have to come with good and consistent sharpness out of the box; can you do it in numbers? What about crowning spines and "choils?" So many people get the h/t wrong, what makes you think you won't? Y'know... stuff like that.

Just from the outside looking in, with my nose pressed against the glass, it seems you've got enough going for you to sell that knife. Whether or not cladded VG-10 is the best choice of alloys is another question. It would probably sell well, but do you really want "Richmond" on cladded VG-10. VG-2 might be better.

A line of knives with enough different profiles to make up a "roll set" for the student or professional, and a "block set" for the home; using a quality stainless alloy (G3?), with friendly Micarta handles (oval, not too skinny); built around cloned Sabatier profiles, and priced attractively (consistent with <$100/10" chef's would kick ass.

We should talk.

BDL


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 Post subject: Re: Differences in VG10 Steels?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:46 pm
Posts: 217
The Artifex line is essentially Forschner -- but better alloy, non-existent aesthetics, limited lengths, and some F&F issues as well.

The design challenge is a line of reasonably priced, western-friendly wa-knives, with a good stainless alloy, MAC Pro level F&F, and Sabatier ergonomics. Doable? Maybe.

BDL


Last edited by boar_d_laze on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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