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 Post subject: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:44 am
Posts: 161
Location: Northern Virginia
Hi Guys,

I found my perfect edge. Basically the type of edge you get when you take a 1K ish edge and strop it on a 5k or 6K stone.

I love splash and go.

I've found a great set that can fulfill my splash and go and edge needs and do it really fast.
Ume 1K, Bamboo 5K or King 6K or Arishi 6k or the Meara Natural.

Now I'm looking for something that can fulfill the splash and go and edge needs, but do it while providing the perfect feel.
So far I've nailed down the low stone in the form of the King 1.2k. Yes, I know, its a lowly hardware store stone, but we cant choose who we love :lol: .

I need the 5k/6K stone.

The ones I have, the Bamboo 5K, King 6K, and Arishi 6k just don't feel quite right. Not enough abrasive feel and too hard.

The Rika 5K feels just about perfect. If I could find a 6K version of that, I would be very happy. ( Yes, I could work it to refine the mud, but by that time, I've ground out all the 1K teeth and I need some of those teeth to make up my perfect edge )

The Meara feels great abrasive wise, but it is really hard. I'm after something softer. I do love the smell though. Am thinking once I figure out this set, I am going to need a set that provides all this and the smell too :)

So what do you think?
I am thinking something softer might be the ticket. Something like a Chosera maybe?

You got to help me out.... I need my Zen :ugeek:


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 Post subject: Re: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:39 pm 
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You may find softer but I doubt your going to get an abrasive feel from any 6k.
As far as softer I think your on the right track with the Chosera, the 6k Naniwa Super Stone might be even softer.



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 Post subject: Re: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:14 pm 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
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Chosera stones are very hard so I don't think you will find what you want with them.

Natural stones as you know have probably the best feel (at least IMO) and might give you what your looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:13 pm 
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Bramwell, given that you like the Suehiro Rika so much, the first thing you have to do is ask yourself what you think a 6K will do better than the Rika -- which is 5K if you work the mud a little.

You'll get some subtle differences from stone to stone, but those differences will be more about the stones themselves than the differences between 5K and 6K.

    "You may find softer but I doubt your going to get an abrasive feel from any 6k. As far as softer I think your on the right track with the Chosera, the 6k Naniwa Super Stone might be even softer."

Naniwa doesn't make an SS 6K. The SS 5K is a pretty good stone, and is a lot of polish for the grit rating, and may very well be the stone the OP is after -- similar in a lot of ways to the Suehiro Rika. Not quite as creamy or packed with friendly feedback, but you don't have to jack around with breaking down the mud to make the SS act like a 5K. Naniwa doesn't make a Chosera 6K either. The Chosera 5K is faster than the SS, but slightly harder and with more bite. Most sane people would go for the Chosera. Personally, I prefer the softer SS. You (Bramwell) prefer the Rika.

Arashiyama/Takenoko is a very fast polishing stone with enough speed and reach to get all the way down to a King 1.2K, and polishes way above its nominal grit rating; but it's hard, slick, and doesn't provide a lot of feedback.

Lots of people like the Shapton GS 6K. If you've ever used a GS, you'll know whether you will or won't like the 6K. They all feel about the same. Very, frikkin' hard; heap much plenty bite.

The Gesshin 6K is probably as close to what you want as any nominal 6K I've tried. Good stone, fast, friendly, communicative, but expensive. And tell me again why you want a 6K?

As long as you're polishing, you might as well go to 8K - 10K worth of slick and shiny. Tons of great stones in that range.

Naniwa SS 8K is very soft; in fact ridiculously so, and will gouge very easily if you're not careful. Otherwise, could be perfect. I had one which I liked a great deal until it started to crumble and began to gouge on sight -- partly because it got used up, and partly because its first owner treated it like crap. For pure feel, the 8K Naniwa Pure White leaps to mind, friendly price (considering the quality) too.

But let's get the horse back in front of the cart and talk about getting to 8K. The Suehiro Rika is not only an good final stone in its own right, but an excellent way to get to just about any 8K, including the Pure White. Moral of the story: Suehiro Rika.

Another great feeling and reasonably priced possibility is the Kitayama; but the Kitayama won't reach very far down, and really wants something almost as fine as its nominal 8K rating as a lead in. In fact, "as fine" or "even finer," might be better. I think a Rika should just barely reach the Kitayama, but haven't tried it myself. What I can say empirically is that a Shapton Pro 5K lead-in was OK, but just OK.

Probably getting way out of the practicality and budget ranges, but... The Pure White chased by the Kitayama is a magic edge. Obviously I haven't tried everything but the Pure White/Kityama is one of the two best edges I've ever been able to get off of stones. The other is the 8K Gesshin.

BDL


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 Post subject: Re: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:28 pm 
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The first thing that came to mind was the Kitayama, but as BDL already has stated, it's a rather fine stone. I didn't like the finish I got from it actually, but it had good tactile feedback.



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 Post subject: Re: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:44 am
Posts: 161
Location: Northern Virginia
You guys are awesome. Thanks for all the great feedback.

Am thinking I'll try one of the Naniwa stones.

BDL.... Why the 6K you ask.

I came to really like the specific edge I do because of the following problem.

I started freehand sharpening on a King 1K / 6K stone using Murray Carters sharpen on the 1K, and strop only on the 6K technique.
It leaves a very particular type of edge that has good feedback in the cut and is scary sharp at the same time.

Moving away from the King stones, I tried a few other brands like Bestor, Nubatama, Rika, Arashiyama, a couple naturals and a number of grits allowing me to do tighter stacked progressions up to 6K, and while I was getting super sharp edges, the level of feedback in the cut was greatly reduced. It was like the knife would just glide through whatever it was cutting but not really let me know about it. Bit like driving a sports car with numb steering.

So I started stopping at lower grits, like the Rika or Aoto for example. This increased the level of feedback while cutting, but the knife just didn't feel as sharp.

I think in the end, what I like is a semi polished 1K ish edge. It has a lot of the sharpness of the polishing stones edge while retaining some of the feedback of the 1K edges tooth. Its not quite a 1K edge because the tooth is greatly reduced in the polishing process, but they aren't eliminated.

I tried to quantify it a bit. Here are some pix.

The King 1.2k Edge
Image

King 1.2 stropped on a King 6K
Image

King 1.2 progression with a Rika 5K ( sharpened on the Rika, not stropped )
Image

Here is a very interesting cutting edge I just came up with while taking these pics.

King 1.2k / Rika 5K / Roo strop with CBN 1.5 M
Image

I cuts very much like a sharper version of the King 1.2 / King 6K edge. Good feedback and great sharpness.

Gota love the hunt for sharpening Zen :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:26 pm 
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boar_d_laze wrote:"..... I think your on the right track with the Chosera, the 6k Naniwa Super Stone might be even softer."
Naniwa doesn't make an SS 6K.


:oops: ooopps....yea...well....we all can't be BDL!



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 Post subject: Re: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:33 am 
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Thank God for that.

BDL


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 Post subject: Re: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:36 am 
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Go back to the Meara. Now it's time to play :)

You want softer? Take an Aoto Tomonagura to the Meara. You will quickly have a soft mud on your stone and the Meara will give you 'refined Aoto mud'. Want a little finer? - use some Yaginoshima Asagi mud on the stone. A bit harder and more refined result - not quite as fine as using a Yaginoshima asagi directly but an intermediate step.

Somewhat coarser and more bite? Start off the mud with a 1200 atoma.

More refinement? Consider the 0.75 (24k) micron CBN or even 1.5 micron (12k) CBN on the Meara. You are just beginning to tap the versatility of this stone. It is a superb 'platen' for various mud combinations that you can fine tune to your needs. I am experimenting with some Hideryama tomonaguras with excellent results lately :) Because it (Meara) is a closed stone (not like most suita with pores), you run little risk of grit contamination with this stone using various exotic 'brews' on the stone.

Other tomonagura I would suggest - lyoto for a soft creamy mud with good refinement. There are several kinds and I'm specifically referring to a soft white spotted one. This yields a mud somewhat similar to a well developed 8k Snow white mud. One can also use nagura like Koma and Boton naguras. I know I'm opening a Pandora's box here, but welcome to my 'mad scientist' world :)

---
Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Help me find my 6K Zen please.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:45 am 
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So for instance, you could start with the aoto tomonagura on the Meara and as you work the mud let it dilute and replenish so that one both breaks down the mud of the aoto and also gradually incorporates more meara mud into the blend and titrate the mix until you get it to exactly the edge you wish :) Now you have a really interesting meditation :)

---
Ken



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