It is currently Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:11 pm

All times are UTC



Welcome
Welcome to chefknivestogo

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. In addition, registered members also see less advertisements. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, join our community today!





 Page 1 of 2 [ 12 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:50 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:59 pm
Posts: 16
I've been using the EP for some time now and I appear to be hitting a wall. I can get my knives (and they are good knives -- masamoto ks and konosuke hd) sharp enough to shave arm hair but I have a tough time getting them to do what I really want them to do -- glide through tomato skin without sawing. As I mentioned on another post, I typically go 220, 320, then 600, deburring on felt at each step, and finally strop on boron carbide or chromium oxide-loaded strops.

Today I pulled out the EP manual for the first time in a long time and noticed it suggested using only the 220 stone for an "aggressive" edge. It then occurred to me that I may be over-refining my edge and should stop a a lower grit so I end up with something toothier, which may get me closer to my tomato-cutting goal.

Any thoughts/reactions? As anyone tried sharpening without going higher than 220 and, if so, what results did you get?

Thanks in advance.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:53 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 3:59 pm
Posts: 1623
Location: Cape Town - South Africa
Dead right - over sharpening for the application does that - good shaver but shitty slicer - reverse the situation - you cannot put arm hair into the food.....

It will also stay "sharper" longer.

I stop at #500 Shapton GS...

:)



_________________
PICKLED IN SQUADRON RUM
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:59 pm
Posts: 16
@MR: Huh, that's interesting -- I did a bit of research on the internets and most people claim that a highly polished edge lasts longer than a toothy one. You've had the opposite experience?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:45 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:59 pm
Posts: 16
FWIW (assuming anyone but me cares about this), I directed the below question to Ben and got hte below response:
**************
Ben,
I've had the apex for a couple of years now, and have been frustrated by the fact that after a 220, 320, 600 progression, followed by stropping on loaded leather or balsa, my Japanese knives get sharp enough to shave arm hair but won't cut through a tomato skin without a sawing motion. After doing some research, I realized that I'm probably over-refining for this purpose and need to stick to a lower grit stone. I pulled out the EP manual yesterday for the first time in a while and noticed that you suggested using the 220 stone only for a more "agressive" edge. By agressive, are you basically saying the same thing as what many call "toothy"? Any suggestions on the best grit to stop at for cutting tomatoes and bell peppers?

******
Daniel,
It is the leather strop and balsa that are taking the high edge off of your knife. Just finish with the 600 and remove the burr. Now try and cut a tomato. It should work perfect. However, I am really surprised that the edge will shave hair, that is a bit of a mystery. If you want a polished edge, on your Japanese Knives, you need to progress to the 1000 stone and the 2000 and 3000 polish tapes. This edge will just fall through a tomato and last much longer then the 600 edge. However this edge does not work on regular kitchen knives, just stick to the 600 for those knives. The polish also works well on pocket and all sporting and hunting knives.

Strops do not cut straight off of the edge. You get some wrap over the edge which softens the edge. The polish tapes cut straight off of the edge and will give you a much sharper and stronger edge.

Ben


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:18 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 3:59 pm
Posts: 1623
Location: Cape Town - South Africa
Read the link & Google course finish edge retention....

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... -quot-rope

:)



_________________
PICKLED IN SQUADRON RUM
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:45 am 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 1204
The problem is with your hugh jump from a 600 grit EP stone to a 1 micron compound on your strop. From 600 grit to 16000 grit is too big of a jump for the 1 micron compound to have maximum benefit. This is what Ben is referencing and what I and most people prefer as well. A coarse edge acts more like a serrated edge ripping through, whereas a refined edge push cuts through a tomato quite nicely.

I suspect that the lack of performance you are getting is from just rounding your edges off with your strop. Try some of the intermediate grits before stropping and you will be much more satisfied. Also use light pressure with your strops.

---
Ken



_________________
My Facebook Page
Ken'sCorner
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:44 am 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 3388
Location: USA... mostly.
dannynyc wrote:"I can get my knives (and they are good knives -- masamoto ks and konosuke hd) sharp enough to shave arm hair, but I have a tough time getting them to do what I really want them to do -- glide through tomato skin without sawing.
Any thoughts/reactions?"

My thoughts & reactions are, this without ever in memory stopping at 600, <1> I don't think I'd strop a 600 edge with a 16k or 30k strop. I don't see the point unless its just to deburr, but I've never stopped at 600 either. <2> Confusion. Your KS & HD are sharp enough to shave your arm @600, but have to saw through a tomato. I mean, when you say "shave your arm" - I would imagine a 600 edge would yank then cut your hair. Irrespective of that, as you know - hence your frustration, it should rip through a tomato effortlessly. <3> "I realized that I'm probably over-refining for this purpose" I can link to a score of videos of highly refined edges falling through tomato skin like the tomato wasn't even there. A couple nights ago I brought my KS through a 1200, 5k, 8k, 1u, 1/4u (that far bc I was bored in my hotel room) free hand progression that thinly sliced unsupported tomato horizontally as easily as it passed a HHT.

I have to recommend, closely in line with Ben & Ken, to eliminate the strop. I'd buy a 1200, finish your progression there, and if you must strop, strop on the 1200 lightly.



_________________
Embracing the silence amid a life and land full of static...
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:42 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:59 pm
Posts: 16
Thanks everyone, these tips are really helpful. I've bought a 1000 stone and 2K and 3K polishing tapes. I'm excited to give them all a try.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:54 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 3388
Location: USA... mostly.
DANNY <> Please update here, as I'm sure we would all like to hear about your results. I would...

Good luck.



_________________
Embracing the silence amid a life and land full of static...
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Aggressive" edge on EP and tomatoes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:10 am 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 1204
Just as a point of clarification, let's make sure we are all talking about the same thing here. The EP grit rating system is different than the Japanese rating system, etc etc

This should help us all in talking about the same thing:

Image

Now you can cut a tomato with a serrated blade or a very toothy edge and this helps rip through the tomato skin, however a refined edge can push cut a tomato with ease. Personally I'd rather push cut than slice as there is less wasted motion.

---
Ken



_________________
My Facebook Page
Ken'sCorner
Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 2 [ 12 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


suspicion-preferred