It is currently Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:11 am



Welcome
Welcome to chefknivestogo

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. In addition, registered members also see less advertisements. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, join our community today!





 Page 1 of 3 [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone finish compared
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:52 am 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 1342


(still uploading at the time of posting)

In this video I demonstrate the Hakka Tomae, a stone available in limited quantities at Chefknivestogo.com These stones are imported by me (Precise Sharpening) for Chefknivestogo and are stamped (on the back of the stone in this instance) with the Tanaka Toishi Kyogyosho stamp, assuring you of a quality and authentic product.

The mine it comes from is the Hakka mine and the particular layer is the Tomae layer, a more uniform and less stratified layer than the suita layer.

Because the stone comes from a mine and layer I am familiar with I already know the characteristics of this stone even before using it. You will hear comments to the contrary that each stone is a complete mystery grab bag. I describe the stones characteristics before use and, of little suprise to me it performs as expected.

It absorbs water somewhat slowly, although adding more water from time to time is necessary. It is a muddy stone, unlike many other polishing stones, so it is particularly suited to single bevel knives like yanagis or usubas that require a refined edge and don't usually have a perfectly uniform front bevel. It is also well suited to double bevel knives like this Moritaka that has been ground to a zero grind - with no separate bevel but just the two sides of the knife meeting with just a slightly convex grind - not quite a full traditional hamaguri grind.

With continued sharpening, a continually refined mud is being built. I look at the edge as the process continues and a natural stone finish gradually replaces the initial synthetic stone finish, providing a contrast between the softer cladding steel (jigane) and the harder core steel or hagane, with the softer cladding producing a softer sand blasted hazy finish and the harder steel showing a type of mirror finish much like an antique mirror with a black haze. This is referred to as a kurobikari finish.

---
Ken



_________________
My Facebook Page
Ken'sCorner
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone Part 2
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:32 am 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 1342




In the first video I demonstrated the difference between a synthetic stone finish and a natural stone finish. To those that closely observed the finish some coarser scratches were observable. Some have mistaken these scratches as being from the Hakka Tomae. I would remind you that this is not a coarse stone but rather a polishing stone that neither can remove such coarse scratches nor cause them.

So I went back, going back as coarse as a 400 grit stone up to a 2000 grit stone to remove the majority of these scratches and redid the finish with the Hakka Tomae once again, this time more fully demonstrating the capabilities of the stone itself.

In this video I finish the final stages to demonstrate the Hakka finish without the distracting coarser synthetic stone finishes.

---
Ken



_________________
My Facebook Page
Ken'sCorner
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone finish compared
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 1:23 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:18 pm
Posts: 7338
Location: Madison Wisconsin
Good job Ken. It's amazing how many views your videos get on our site.



_________________
Mark Richmond
Chefknivestogo

Chefknivestogo Blog
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone finish compared
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:33 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 1342
I really wanted to 'get the word out' on this amazing stone. Although the Hakka Tomae is getting rare and these specimens are particularly fine examples of this type of stone, it's true potential is realized best by 'playing in the mud' a bit. One of my favorite natural stones.

---
Ken



_________________
My Facebook Page
Ken'sCorner
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone finish compared
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:23 pm
Posts: 205
I understand the difference between a finish on a knife sharpened on a natural finishing stone. But what your video does not explain is how, if at all, the polish and edge from the natural stone is better than the synthetic stones. In other words, what are the advantages to the natural stone edge and finish over an edge and finish on a natural stone?



_________________
WickedSharp
Zen in the Art of Knife Sharpening
“If one really wants to be master of an art, technical knowledge of it is not enough. One has to transcend technique so that the art becomes an ‘artless art’ growing out of the Unconscious.” Eugen Herrigel
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone finish compared
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:08 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:34 pm
Posts: 1471
In my experience, natural stone edges tend to last longer. Due to the polishing nature of the stones, you end up with a much finer scratch pattern, and ultimately less ragged carbides sticking out to get ripped off. Carbide fallout is #1 on losing a razor sharp edge, and it just seems as though the naturals do a better job at preventing this.



_________________
Shaun Fernandez

With great sharpness comes great responsibility.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone finish compared
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:23 pm
Posts: 205
Even if the knife is finished on a Shapton Glass or Shapton Pro 30,000 grit stone and stropped?



_________________
WickedSharp
Zen in the Art of Knife Sharpening
“If one really wants to be master of an art, technical knowledge of it is not enough. One has to transcend technique so that the art becomes an ‘artless art’ growing out of the Unconscious.” Eugen Herrigel
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone finish compared
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:48 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 1342
"I understand the difference between a finish on a knife sharpened on a natural finishing stone. But what your video does not explain is how, if at all, the polish and edge from the natural stone is better than the synthetic stones. In other words, what are the advantages to the natural stone edge and finish over an edge and finish on a natural stone?" .... "Even if the knife is finished on a Shapton Glass or Shapton Pro 30,000 grit stone and stropped?"

Well the scope of these videos is much narrower, demonstrating the qualities of a specific natural stone and a polishing one at that. The terms better (or worse) are probably best replaced by different as few would completely agree on what is 'best' and lumping all synthetics in one bucket and all naturals in another wouldn't be a useful exercise. I feel that an edge is a task specific thing - based on the steel, the geometry, the intended use and preferences of the user. I wouldn't put a 30k edge on a medium hardness steel knife.

I would use a Monzen aoto, something I'll demonstrate next as a rather ideal edge for a butcher to use on a medium hard Japanese knife for a number of reasons. A razor would benefit with a harder natural stone of fine grit like a Nakayama or some Ozuku or even Yaginoshimas. It would also do quite nicely with a 30k Pro too followed by a series of compounds. some of this will come to personal preference - do you want extreme comfort, extreme sharpness or a classical natural stone edge. It really is too big of a question to answer short of writing a book on the topic .... :). And even then, your quotation in your signature answers this question best :)

---
Ken



_________________
My Facebook Page
Ken'sCorner
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone finish compared
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:01 am 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 1342
I would also like to mention in my second video what stones I used to precede the Hakka Tomae. I chose synthetic stones, all Nubatama stones. Why? Because, for this application they were all ideal choices. Could I have gone with an all natural lineup? Well yes. But the Nubatamas play PARTICULARLY well here. I started out with the 400 Bamboo. It's rapid aggressive nature gave me a nice foundation without contributing a deep scratch pattern. The level of muddiness was ideal and quite controlled - not gushing mud but just enough to follow curves nicely. I followed this with the 800 Bamboo a very comfortable transition from the 400. Then the 1200 bamboo - a very muddy stone with excellent finishing characteristics on carbon steel and just the right amount of mud formation. I followed this with the 2000 bamboo stone - a magical stone that very smoothly transitions the gap between natural and synthetic stones. This stone is a real sleeper. Yea, a bit pricey, but it has become a stone I anticipate using with a sense of joy because of what it does so well. I was tempted to use the new 3k for this but I'm saving that one and wanted a bit more aggression so I went for the 2k in this sequence.

---
Ken



_________________
My Facebook Page
Ken'sCorner
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hakka Tomae Japanese Natural Stone finish compared
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:37 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:23 pm
Posts: 205
Thanks, Ken. That does answer my question. A sharp knife is a sharp knife, and there is a point of diminishing returns, depending on the steel. There is no point to going much above 2K grit for a soft German knife, and for a lot of butcher's knives. As for hardness of the blade, most of the steel in high quality Japanese kitchen knives seems to be between 60 HRC at the low end, and 64HRC at the higher end, with 61HRC being most common in carbon, and you point out in your videos on the synthetic Nubatama Bamboo 1200 grit, 2,000 and 4,000 grit stones, in which you sharpen quality Japanese kitchen knives, that the stones behave much like natural stones, including generating mud and a kasumi like finish similar to natural stones at a fraction of the price.

I can be more specific. I have an Aritsugu Type-A 240mm gyuto, which you sharpened for Chef Knives to Go. I believe the Type-A is made of Gokinko stainless steel at about 60-61 HRC. You did a beautiful job. What was the highest grit you used to sharpen the Type-A's for Chef Knives to Go? And did you uset synthetic or natural, or both. I'm pretty sure I have a general idea of what your answers will be, but perhaps you will surprise me.



_________________
WickedSharp
Zen in the Art of Knife Sharpening
“If one really wants to be master of an art, technical knowledge of it is not enough. One has to transcend technique so that the art becomes an ‘artless art’ growing out of the Unconscious.” Eugen Herrigel
Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 3 [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Radar53 and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


suspicion-preferred