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 Post subject: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:29 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:01 pm
Posts: 165
It would be interesting and helpful to know which grit numbers to begin with and progress with on the various knives in various stages of sharpness. I'm using Edge Pro, but I don't know why it wouldn't be helpful for regular stones for beginners.

For instance, say a Forschner. Which grit would be recommended to begin with on a new knife. For touch ups. For dull. For beat up.
Or a TKC, Artifex, or any other knife. New, touchup, dull or worn. Where to start, what progression, etc.
Or others.

Or is there a general rule for these things.

And where to stop with the angles for best use. 25*, 20*, 18*, 15*, 13*, 10*, etc.

Or maybe it could be done just with different steels, rather than specific knives. VG, Semi, SS, Carbon, etc.

Seems it would save a lot of steel by starting at the proper grit rather than going lower than necessary.
I know there are no hard and fast answers, but it might keep someone (wonder who) from putting a 10* bevel on a brittle steel.

Really, just thinking out loud. Gotta get this stuff outa my head for a while.


Does this make sense?


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 Post subject: Re: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:36 am 
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RAY <> You could learn so much from reading through the search button on this topic of which has been covered ad nauseum. I'm not suggesting you not ask nor am I implying it is not worth answering... only that reading & researching really will teach you so much more.



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 Post subject: Re: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:04 am 

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 9:37 pm
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Location: Pensacola, FL, USA
Melampus wrote:RAY <> You could learn so much from reading through the search button on this topic of which has been covered ad nauseum. I'm not suggesting you not ask nor am I implying it is not worth answering... only that reading & researching really will teach you so much more.


+1000

Not to mention that learning by actually doing, and seeing how your results work in the real world will make you a better sharpener, while following a "cookbook" approach will not.

And in the end, there is no "cookbook", as the answer is, "It depends". It's like the answer to the question, "When do you sharpen your knives?" The answer is, "When they are dull", but the definition of 'dull' varies according to the individual. The 'best' angle to put on a particular blade depends so much on the skills of the person that is to use it so as to make any answer expressed in degrees meaningless. If you can't push cut without torquing the blade, an angle of twenty degrees will chip, but if you know what you are doing, ten degrees may be the 'best'.


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 Post subject: Re: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:07 am 
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+1



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 Post subject: Re: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 3:34 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:01 pm
Posts: 165
Got it! Thanks much. I am reading, though. A lot. Like three or four hours a day.


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 Post subject: Re: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:54 am 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
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It's hard to beat the coarse, medium, fine approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:34 am 
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One useful source of information are my youtube videos demonstrating the Nubatama stones. Inherent in making these videos was to estimate what stone and technique would 'work' for bring a particular knife to the next level of refinement using a particular stone. By the time you make it through the 30+ videos, you should have a decent answer to your question.

You can find links to these videos from the listings of these Nubatama stones on CKTG. It really is a sharpening course in disguise.

https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube ... =firefox-a

will also help you find a lot of them.

And watching other skilled sharpeners on this forum will further broaden your perspectives.

And then it's time to get some mud under your fingernails :)

---
Ken



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 Post subject: Re: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:00 am 

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am
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I have started my new job and that has quickly brought to my attention what stones do best. I would like to try the bamboo 150 but for now I use a bamboo 180, 1000, & 5000 and that has shown to be a impressive combo for double bevel knives.


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 Post subject: Re: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:48 am 
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Rail,

You've broken the world of knives into more discrete pieces than needed. You've come up with a million different types, but as far as most stones go, so far you're only talking about sharpening two different types of alloys: tough and soft; and strong (possibly tough) and hard.

Assuming you want to put together one water stone kit to sharpen all of your knives, a good way of looking at it is in terms of where you want to stop the sharpening/polishing process. In your case, you'll want a three or four stone kit, consisting of a coarse stone (for profile and repair); a medium/coarse stone (to draw the first burr); a medium/fine stone to draw a refined burr and polish out the medium/coarse stone; and possibly a fine stone to finish the polishing process for your harder knives.

Since soft knives won't hold a fine or ultra fine polish for long, there's no point in taking them beyond what they can hold.

The CKtG three stone kit is a good place to start. It has excellent coarse and medium/coarse stones; and the Suehiro Rika can act as both a medium/fine and a fine stone (3K - 5K); depending on how much you work its mud during the final polishing steps of sharpening.

The CKtG kit is not the only good set. You can do as well for the same money, or get better stones, or spend less money. I still haven't seen a set which does better for the same money. As you climb the price ladder you reach a point where the stones aren't really better or faster, they're just more convenient to use.

In the CKtG kit, the Beston and Bester both need extensive soaking (1 hour min), and the Rika needs a lot of flattening and wears quickly. Can you get stones which don't require the extra planning? Yes. But you'll spend more.

My own kit is slightly different. Like you I have some soft Euros (Forschner, carbon Sabatier) and some knives made out of stronger harder alloys (Japanese and American). I use a four stone kit with a 500, 1.2K, 3K and an 8K. The 3K level is a good one for the softer knives, and it's also a good bridge between the 1.2K and the 8K; while the 8K is as fine a stone as I want for any kitchen knife.

Sharpening is always a compromise between "perceived sharpness" and durability. The ideal bevel angles for most of your knives is probably 15* on each side. You'll probably find that most of your knives other than the Forschners can handle 60/40 - 70/30 asymmetry pretty well.

If your knife edges collapse because they're too acute, try sharpening a slightly more obtuse micro-bevel over the existing bevel angles; rather than completely re-profiling.

Brittle alloys don't become more chip prone with more acute angles or with extreme asymmetry. They usually chip from abuse of one sort or another. Using a honing rod improperly, forcing them through a difficult cut and smashing them against the board (when cutting the bottom off a pineapple, for instance) cutting on a plastic board, cutting on ceramic, cutting against bone; etc., etc.

Last, the differences between a 150 and a 180 come down to "or" not "and." There's no reason anyone needs both in the same kit.

BDL


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 Post subject: Re: Stone Progression On Various Knives
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:08 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:28 pm
Posts: 518
One useful source of information are my youtube videos demonstrating the Nubatama stones. Inherent in making these videos was to estimate what stone and technique would 'work' for bring a particular knife to the next level of refinement using a particular stone. By the time you make it through the 30+ videos, you should have a decent answer to your question.


These videos are an invaluable source of information, you can learn so much just by watching and listening. After a thousand knives I still enjoy them and use them, watched the 220 Nubatama video twice last night.

Don't sweat the angles too much, get comfortable with your technique and sharpen as many knives as you can, focus with passion, persistence and patience and stay on target on both sides of the knife. Watch the videos, they will motivate you, they're the stepping stones to an extremely enjoyable and rewarding experience.

Peter


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