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 Post subject: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:47 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:01 pm
Posts: 165
Hi. Watched the KF video, and have a question. Since this knife has a thicker body tapering to the thin edge and behind the edge, wouldn't the edge pro hold the knife too far off the edge pro as compared to a knife with more "flatness" in the taper? Or would that angle be ok.

Another question I have is, can a Forschner/Victorinox chef knife be sharpened to 15 degrees with no problems?

Thanks much.


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:58 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 733
Since nobody has tackled your question, let me address the second one.

Popular opinion is that the softer European steels can't support an edge as acute as 15 degrees. And they're right. An 18 degree edge would be much more reasonable and still might be too acute, depending upon the steel. Ben Dale himself now has a note on his website asking folks to quit reprofiling to extreme bevels and offers an alternative.

All that being said, they're your knives so do what you want. I took my Gerbers to 15 degrees and they work fine for moderate home use. The edge will roll after a while, but one or two light swipes per side with my F. Dick smooth oval steel http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fdidi12posto.html will realign the edge without jacking it up. Would it stand up to commercial kitchen use? Nope.

If you decide to brave this adventure, be aware that you're going to have to hog off a lot of steel. The Atoma 140 pays for itself for this type of work. The stock EP 120 would have taken literally forever on my Gerber Chinese cleaver. Be sure to grind away enough that you don't get a false edge (not certain if that's the correct term) which may look sharp but won't cut butter. In this case, the edge becomes a truncated V. Check your work under a bright light and make sure that the very edge doesn't gleam as you rotate the knife. A 30X loupe is a cheap investment. Get to sharp on the coarse stone because otherwise all you will be doing with the finer stones is refining a lousy edge.

All of the above is what I've learned by sharpening my knives with a particularly abrasion resistant steel and it might not be true with different steel. You might find you can creep up on the edge with the finer grits. The true experts might be reading the above and burying their foreheads in their hands right now and that's OK. You and I are here to learn.

Cheers,

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:01 pm
Posts: 165
Ok, here's where I am right now. I started this project before I found out I probably shouldn't be doing it, but I'm making an attempt to finish this thing. Don't know what I'm gonna end up with, but here it is, my first attempt with the Edge Pro. Starting with a Forschner 8" Chef's in pretty good shape.

Plan was to profile to 15 degrees, then move to 18 or 20. Started with the 120 stone set at 15 degrees. Spent the last two days on that, off and on. Got a good burr. Moved to the 220 and am working on that. I have a very slight burr I can feel if I concentrate. Going to get a little more burr before moving on. How much burr do you need before changing stones?
Should I keep going up the stones or go ahead and change to the 18 or 20 now and start over with the stones? Can I just switch to the new angle and start with something like the 220 and go on up?
Thanks for your reply.


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:17 pm 
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Posts: 2389
Raibeaux - I'm no expert, but I have learned to get a consistently good, sharp edge with the Edge Pro Apex system in the 15 or so knives that I've sharpened to date.

On the Forschner 8" Chef, I would keep the same bevel to start. Use the sharpie trick to find an angle that matches the factory bevel (or whatever bevel it currently has). If the knife already has a decent edge, you could probably start with a little higher grit stone, say a 400 or 500 and not take off so much metal. (Don't know what stone progression you have). If you are using different thickness stones, the stop collar is an essential piece of gear on the EP for consistency.

Personally, I like to find the bevel using a dry 1000 grit stone, so I don't gouge the edge too much. It's plenty coarse to take off the sharpie marker and show you where you're at with the angle.

The biggest progress in my sharpening success came after I learned to get a good, consistent burr over the entire length of the cutting surface before switching sides and before de-burring and moving on the next stone grit. Work slowly, don't press too hard, and learn to feel for the burr. It doesn't need to be huge, just enough to feel and know it's there. The knife should be pretty darn sharp on whatever stone you are using to set the profile/first develop the edge, before moving on the next stone. You will be refining your first edge, not creating a new one, unless you are doing a micro-bevel, but that's better left for later, after you have a good feel for the EP.

I have found that burrs on anything up to a 1000 grit stone are pretty easy to feel. On my 4000 grit Shapton glass, it gets much harder for me to detect the burr. I'm still working on that. You can stop at around 1000 grit on a Forschner or other European knives and get a screaming edge with some bite - at least in my experience.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Sorry - just read your posts more carefully. Since you've already started reprofiling the Forschner at 15 degrees you can keep going at that angle and get to your chosen finishing level and see how it performs. You won't really lose anything by trying - you've already removed the metal to get it to 15 degrees. If it doesn't keep that edge well, then change to 18 degrees starting with your 220. Work to get a good 50/50 beveled edge before going higher on the grits. That new 18 degree bevel doesn't need to be large, it will be a smaller bevel on top of the 15 degree bevel.

Others may have better advice, and I would ask them to correct me if any of this is incorrect or poor advice on my part. I don't want to overstep my experience level in handing out advise to others ;).

____________________

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:03 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 733
I agree with Steve. Finish that 15 degree edge off and let us know how it works. If it can't hold an edge to your satisfaction you can put a 20 degree secondary bevel on it. I would start with a finer grit than 220 myself because you don't have that much metal to remove by that point.


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:22 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:01 pm
Posts: 165
I now know not to do this again on a Forschner, but since I'm just starting out on the EP I'll finish it best I can. Looking at the bevels, one side is slightly wider than the other. Am thinking of doing the Sharpie thing. My thinking, which may be bass-accerds, is to Sharpie the wider angle, setting the machine to remove the ink. Then sharpen the narrower angle/side to match. Is this correct in this situation? Right now I'm working on the 400 stone (EP). This has been tough on the EP stones. Really tough. I ordered the DMT XXC yesterday for stone straightening, and will order the Nubatama 150 in the future when/if is comes back into stock.
At any rate, are the suggestions that I go on up to the 1000 EP before changing to 20*? Then start with the 400 for the new bevel if I put one on? Or the 600?
Thanks, folks, for the help...I need all I can get. One bright spot is that with all this flailing around, I'm getting a little better at holding the knife steady without getting sore wrists. Just a little, though.

P.S.
Ordered myself a Kikuichi TKC 240 gyuoto yesterday, too. Don't worry, I ain't gonna touch it with the EP 'til I've sharpened eleventy dozen more.


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:24 am 
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Posts: 2389
Hey Raibeaux - I'm hoping MadRookie chimes in here with a definitive recommendation, given his extensive EP background.

Assuming you are using the same angle on the EP for each side of the blade, then if one bevel is larger than the other, you do not have a perfect 50/50 edge bevel. If they are pretty close in size, then I don't know what impact that might have on cutting performance, or using that bevel to start a smaller microbevel at 18 or 20 degrees.

I use the 500, 1000 and 4000 Shapton Glass stones with my EP setup. I know the stock EP stones translate to different grits, based on the Grand Unified Grit chart on the Sharpening Q&A subforum. Your 1000 EP should be finer than my 1000 Shapton, and I can get a great edge on a Forschner finishing with my 1000 GS.

If you've put some wear and dishing on your 400 stone, it would probably be best to flatten it with your upcoming DMT before doing a final sharpening. Why not put more things in your favor by using flat stones henceforth while sharpening. I've seen people use a pencil on a dry stone making an "X" to the corners, covering the entire stone before flattening. This will show where the stone is high/low when flattening. When the "X" is just gone, the stone is flat. At least, that's one way I've seen it accomplished.

Do you have a drill stop collar for the EP? It really works. Just ask MadRookie.

Also, I got the magnet accessory for my EP. It really holds the knife blade down on the EP with a surprising amount of sticking power. You don't need to concentrate so much on holding the knife. The biggest issue for me is that knives can get quite scratched on the swarf that can build up on the platform when sliding the knife while sharpening. I have been using blue painters tape on the entire blade faces down to about 1/3 inch or so from the edge to eliminate the scratching.

MadRookie - is my advice crap or am I putting him on anything close to the right path?

------------------
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:32 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 733
All great advice. I also strongly recommend purchasing an angle cube. It not only promotes repeatability but accounts for the grind of the knife. A knife with a thick spine may be creating a more acute edge bevel than you realize.

Cheers,

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Laser Aogami Super
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:01 pm
Posts: 165
I have the angle cube and drill stop collar, and used the cube to set the 15 degrees.

Another small problem is that I have twice used the straightening kit from EP with the carbide with the same results. I know when to stop straightening by the amount of blood on the glass tray. Can't wait for the DMT. It's somewhere between here and Chicago right now.

By the way, I really appreciate all you folk's help.


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