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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:40 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:50 pm
Posts: 99
Rick, I looked at your suggestion. No soaking..that's good. Totally new to all these choices. Fair to say that
there's no issue with dishing where flatness goes away--hard to misuse? What about the the first stone in
the series..at 1k grit is that equivalent to medium coarseness of a natural stone? It does say that it's good
for making it "toothy." As in micro serrated? I have seen many give thumbs up to that brand.

I have my doubts,too, about the arkie stones, so I am really looking at alternatives but I will still pursue stropping
on the back in. Stumbling in the dark, I saw a Richard Blaine video...he used the combo of the diamond mesh plates
with stropping. Marketing or a good fast approach? Not a clue, but got my attention.

Thanks for the suggestion...and I need as much information as I can before taking too many unproductive turns.
Mark has more videos. His website is one stop. Liked very much his one on common mistakes. Getting his magnifier
for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:17 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:15 am
Posts: 978
Location: Raleigh, NC
I wouldn't go with diamond. They may be faster, but they just don't give as consistent an edge and they lack in terms of feedback. They're not really a good way to save money, either.

The 1k is roughly equivalent to a Soft Arkansas. The 5k is roughly equivalent to a good Surgical Black stone. You trade cutting power for the lack of wear and mess. I personally don't find either type of stone to produce much of a mess if used properly in an easily cleaned area and the cutting speed is very pleasant. You can't translate Arkansas stones into sharpening hard Japanese knives very well. Trying to get aogami super sharp off of them would be a bit of a pain, and it shouldn't be. Trying HAP40 would get you to tear your hair out. Softer stainless and medium hardness carbon would be much less of an issue.

A toothy edge, as made from a 1k waterstone, does have very fine microserrations, really just the scratch pattern of the particulate on the knife. They help go through fibrous or thick skinned items.


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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:28 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:50 pm
Posts: 99
Lepus,
Ok...Without ever actually using the diamond mesh plate what you say resonates with me...mostly "they lack in terms of feedback." To
me that's part of the satisfaction of knife....well, communication. Can you clarify: "I personally don't find either type of stone to produce much of a mess if used properly in an easily cleaned area and the cutting speed is very pleasant"? You mean either Arkansas or Sharpton (splash and go)?

While an AS knife was one recommended, the more I read the more I think that a novice like me should avoid this level of hardness. All along I prefer
the carbon steel. In my youth I recall the pleasure of sharpening an all carbon knife while camping for weeks on end. Old Hickory or Chicago Cutlery. Stained
and when it got patina seemed to resist rust. My wife is an all organic all natural person...at one time managed an early Whole Foods type of store says it all but oddly enough she prefers all stainless. I'm getting off track and she now consents to just letting me do my thing and she'll come along.

Back to clarification...do you see a fit between Arksansas soft/black combo stone and a carbon edged knife which I estimate to have a hardness of about 61-62? Or better to just replace these stones with the Sharpton glass stones? Either type, from what I'm reading needs to be flattened and in Mark's video he provides an easy solution--coarse sand paper on a flat surface.


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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:00 pm
Posts: 2182
I find a good Shirogami, white #1, white #2, or Aogami, Blue #2 at the 60-62 hardness level to sharpen very easily on synthetic stones. Why not get a knife in one of those steel flavors and give it a go on your Arkies? You won't know until you try.

BTW, spend $25 more and get the Anryu Hammered Blue #2 Santoku. This knife is a Big upgrade for the $. Trust me.


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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:40 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:50 pm
Posts: 99
Steve,
Thanks. My pc has had download issues . The brain can't synch well with this situation. Fixed for the time being and I'm soaking up this website. Truly one stop for learning and the posters write well. I will re-set and go back to the anryu rec.

Meanwhile, if I stick with the arkies, my fledgling knife sharpening spirit is thinking that I need to deal with flattening and I'm already realizing that the sharp edges/corners are a nuisance. If I'm in the ballpark here, would it make sense to get something like the 140diamond flattening plate? Additonal basic items: the deburring block and the 20xloop mag. And, would it speed up sharpening to make a slurry by using one of those little plates, or is this item really only for the harder stones like the sharptons?

I know that I'm being OCD. It's my process. I like to envision a starting routine that is open to change along the way without too many detours.

While you are checking in, a petty knife is on my list to get at the same time as the santoku. Looking at the lower end price wise: Dojo, Goko, or one of the Richmond's is my current short list. Typical use: paring and cutting meat when working in a confined space...like a whole roasted chicken coming out of the frig in a casserole dish.

If I put the arkies aside, my next step would be the sharptons..and my expectation is that my level of satisfaction would be fine although I know what it is to get "the bug."

In either case, I still would like to explore stropping and put to use a nice leather remnant (2mm thick, rough and smooth sides). I've been searching and reading where stropping is reference. Would prefer more details that would help, so I may need to begin a new topic. Suggestions welcome. I'm aware of Mark's video.


Last edited by wphill on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:57 pm
Posts: 111
Location: Central Illinois
I used Arkansas oil stones for years. As has been stated they will work fine, they will just cut slower than synthetic wet stones. I also have Shapton Pro wet stones and use them almost exclusively any more in comparison to my oil stones. It's easier to deal with water instead of honing oil. A flattening/lapping plate can be added later unless your oil stones are in really bad shape.


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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:21 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:50 pm
Posts: 99
Craig, Since you say that you have used oil stones I am inquiring about using the finer one for stropping at the end of the routine of grinding.
I think that I saw someone on a video do this on water stones with the added twist of creating a slurry on a hard water stone. I will probably
acquire one of Mark's little plates for flattening which is what may have been used to make the slurry. Am I making sense?


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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:00 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 662
If you do indeed mix Arkansas (or similar) oilstones that have once been oiled and waterstones, please beware of potential contamination of the waterstones with oil. For example, you would want to degrease any flattening plates when taking them from the oilstones to the waterstones. No personal experience there, but Ken123 says it's no bueno.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:50 pm
Posts: 99
Rick, I've had the same thought. Never hurts to hear it. I'll look for ken123's post if I read you correctly. Thanks.
One think I need to is knock the edges off of the arkansas stones. I'll take your heads up and do it before I use
oil as I am still trying to use them without oil. A lot of commentary on using water, soap, simple green, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: one santuku, one combo arkie stone, on the cheap,
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:00 am 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 1:52 am
Posts: 354
Location: Philly
If you are going the oil stone route, which is fine for a lot of carbon. Slower but it will get you an edge and with enough steps you will can achieve mirror polish. I even had no problem with S35vn steel. I would highly recommend mineral oil which is all sharpening/honing oil is afterall. I found that to work way better with those stones then any kind of cleaner or soap and water. I also find the oil not to be messy at all. I usually don't spill 1 drip on my table. Honestly that other stuff is nonsense it works but not nearly as good as mineral oil.

So if you are going oil you really need to first start with the Norton India Combination stone of coarse and fine. Then its soft Arkansas, followed by hard Arkansas then finishing on surgical black Arkansas. Finally stropping with compound. That is basically the entire oil stone progression. Some people add another lower grit stone before the Norton Coarse, it is also from Norton their Crystolon stone. That can be used first to reset bevel angles.

Starting at Soft Arkansas is good place to start to bring a sharp edge back. But if you have to put an edge on a dull knife and you are starting at Soft Arkansas stone instead of Coarse Norton India stone you will be on that stone forever. And I mean forever. I highly recommend against starting at that level.

Oil stones (arkansas and norton india) are extremely hard and plenty of people have had those stones for several decades. They almost never need flattening. If you want to round sides off just use the Norton India Coarse side to do it. You basically only have to do it once and a while. Where as on waterstones you have to round sides every time you flatten which is basically every time you use the stone.

Cardboard loaded with compound works great as a strop and so does denim jeans. But cardboard is easy to get and come by. I often use heavy paper bags from grocery stores if I can't find cardboard laying around. I still highly recommend getting real strop
though. My strop is from the stropman www.stropman.com. My first strop was an 8x2 cheapy under $20 including compound.

The Norton India combo stone should be $25 and you can easily find a strop with compound for another $25 at the max.
Coming from oil stones the only waterstones I ever liked are the Shapton Pro series. Love them. Everything else just feels weird after being on oil for years. Example, if you are trying to go from oil stones to Naniwa Super Stone it would feel like sharpening on baby powder they are so soft.

I really like to use my oil stones when I am trying to get in touch with the past. Oil stones are just plain old school American and sometimes it feels good to be connected to that era. Thats what your grandpa's sharpened their pocket knifes on. Sometimes you want to take longer and really enjoy the sharpening.

It does make perfect sense for a lot of people if they didn't start with oil stones to completely turn up there noses at it though. You would probably never go from high grade waterstones to oil stones. But oil stones are not a bad place to start if its your first time and price is a huge concern. I had plenty of enjoyment out of them and it connects you to our country's history. And that is kind of important to me.



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