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 Post subject: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:07 pm
Posts: 8
1. Are you right handed? Yes
2. What type of knife are you interested in (gyuto, nakiri etc..) Gyuto
3. What size knife are you looking for? 210
4. Do you prefer carbon or stainless steel? Leaning toward carbon
5. Do you prefer a western handle or a Japanese handle? never handled a wa
6. How much did you want to spend? $50-$200 love good value
7. Do you know how to sharpen? yes

My go to kitchen knife has been a Wusthof 8" chef for the last 10 years. It sees use daily as we prefer to eat at home and my wife has a cooking blog which I do the prep for. I'm a combination rock and forward slicer that have worked in a restaurant doing prep back in my teen years (30 years ago). Recently I picked up a few Opinel carbon steel pocket knives and the light just went off as I was reminded of what knife steel used to behave and feel (carbon feels as though it has soul) like when I was a kid. So now the hunt was on for a carbon steel kitchen knife and that is what has led me to this site. CKTG has a couple that I'm considering and I was hoping to get the opinion of someone that is familiar with these knives.

Under consideration

Murata 210 (carbon) (looks like a good value on paper)

Kono White #2 (carbon) (temporarily out of stock)

Kohetsu Aogami Super ( carbon core / stainless clad)

Hiromoto Aogami Gyuto ( carbon core / stainless clad) (french handle)

Does the cladding effect the feel of the steel (make it feel cold/souless)?
Is there a difference in their slicing ability due to blade geometry/thinness amusing they are equally sharp?
So what do you guys recommend considering the above?
Is there a contender that I have overlooked?

Thanks to all you guys that take the time to point us newbies in the right direction. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:51 am 
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Location: USA... mostly.
CROW <> "Does the cladding effect the feel of the steel (make it feel cold/souless)?" Some can notice a deadening of feedback - a less lively blade, the majority do not.

"Is there a difference in their slicing ability due to blade geometry/thinness amusing they are equally sharp?" I can't say I've used all four of those knives to compare/contrast geometry, but in a general sense - yes, geometry plays a crucial role in how a knife cuts. The quintessential laser, the Kono W#2, is going to feel sharper than it is due to thinness of the edge & will feel as if it cuts more easily then a thicker knife at the same sharpness. They are also very light knives which helps when you're prepping for hours. With these pros comes a con, they are more fragile & require a different level of respect. I'm not saying they are glass, they are steel, but heavy duty tasks must be addressed with caution or your Wusthof. Furthermore, their thin edges are not particularly suited for your rocking style. The lateral force of the slide down the board & the torquing of all that edge to board contact is just not the best for a laser.

The thicker blades, bear in mind none you reference are particularly thick, have benefits, as well. For one, their thickness allows the bladesmith to incorporate a distinct convex into the blade geometry of which helps food release from the blade face & cuts their tendency to wedge into foods. Furthermore, with thickness comes more steel which creates more weight of which many prefer in a knife. A heavier knife with a nice grind has a way of falling through food that a laser can not compare to. Some like the inherent integrity that a heavier knife instills... its a preferential thing. And as I mentioned above, a thicker knife simply has more integrity to handle heavier duty tasks more easily. Yes, these are still hard steel knives we are talking about, but when you get a bit thicker behind the edge you will inherently have a more durable edge.

"So what do you guys recommend considering the above?" From what I know about you, it seems the Murata is the best bet. It's a great value @$100, it's relatively lightweight while still thick enough to perform on heavier tasks & to rock with. Side note: rocking with a Wa feels a bit foreign to me, but not so incredibly strange.

"Is there a contender that I have overlooked?" Are you kidding.?! Too many to list, but here are a few: Kajihara is very much like the Murata you referenced, the Mizu is similar, as well, and you can't forget about the Tanaka. In Yo-handled knives you have the venerable Masamoto, the Misono, and the Artifex in the beloved 52100.



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 Post subject: Re: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:07 pm
Posts: 8
Thanks so much for the reply.
Your comments have me reconsidering whether a medium weight knife might better suit my cutting style.

I had overlooked a few of your recommendations such as the Mizu and Kajihara which looked really nice (both out of stock, though). I had originally ruled out the Artiflax 52100 because I was over focusing on the lightweight lasers. As kind of a hybrid it might be a good choice coming from a traditional Western chef knife.




Nice bulldogs!


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:37 pm 
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Crow - I have both the Artifex 210 in 52100 and the Kajihara Kurouchi 210. Between those two, get the Artifex, no contest. Not to poo-poo anything Mark sells, but I've seen and owned enough knives at this point to definitively state that the Kajihara is a very thick knife, especially at the tip. It's got very heavy convexing on the grind towards the edge. It's a well made knife with a very nice handle - it's just really thick. It gave me fits on dicing onions, etc. The tip is too thick for finer work IMO. I feel like it might almost make a good Western Deba if that tells you anything. I really wanted to like this knife - it's a cool knife, but I have to recommend the Artifex instead.

The Artifex 210 in 52100 is a great knife. It will cut better if you thin it behind the edge, but it's still a better performer OOTB than the Kajihara.

I don't know how the Murata compares to the Kajihara. The Tanaka Kurouchi 210 is also a very good knife if Kurouchi is more your style. If Shaun thinks it's a good performer (see his video), that's a good enough recommendation for me. It might boil down to Western handle versus Wa handle for you. The Tanaka will be lighter and more blade heavy than the Artifex (not a bad thing IMO).


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:45 pm 
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My Tanaka KU was kinda thick in the grind, heavy convex similar to what it sounds like the Kajihara is like (or like my Kajihara Funy). The Tanaka Sekiso is an AWESOME knife, very good performer!!! The Kohetsu is a bit thinner overall, but still does amazingly well. I am going to pick up a 240mm Kohetsu when they get in stock; it's on par with my 240mm AS Laser and Tanaka Sekiso. Richmond Laser AS is also an awesome blade. But you gotta watch the rocking with them. The Hiromoto AS is a bit softer HT wise, so it would hold up better to rocking, but it's a much heavier weightwise knife.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:18 pm
Posts: 7667
Location: Madison Wisconsin
The Kohetsu is meant for you. Good price, great knife, excellent steel. The difference between this and the Wusthof is striking.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rikoaosu21gy.html

Does the cladding effect the feel of the steel (make it feel cold/souless)? Nah
Is there a difference in their slicing ability due to blade geometry/thinness amusing they are equally sharp? Yes but next to your wusthof everything will work better.



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 Post subject: Re: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:34 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:07 pm
Posts: 8
:lol: Thanks for everyone's opinions.

I just placed an order for the Kohetsu.

While working in the kitchen I have been paying more attention to my cutting style and realize that I use all techniques depending on what is being cut and the limitations of the western knife that I have been using. Foods that require more force like carrots get rocked, while soft stuff like mushroom's get chopped, so I'm thinking that my cutting style will adapt quickly to the abilities of the new knife. I'll be sure post video when I can best Aaron's 9 second onion video. :P (NOT)


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:04 pm 
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would love to see a video! good luck with the knife. :)



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 Post subject: Re: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Awesome choice! Post with your feedback after you've had a chance to use it.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for a carbon 210 Gyuto recommendation
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:07 pm
Posts: 8
The Kohetsu is here. Wow! beautiful knife

It handles so different (faster and bigger movements) than the German knives I'm used too. Must be careful until I develop some muscle familiarity with this thing!

The edge is already developing a nice blue and bronze patina.

Ahhhh...... Life's Simple Pleasures :D


Thanks everyone for your help.


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