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 Post subject: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:21 am
Posts: 58
Location: Long Island, NY
Hi. First post on this forum so wanted to introduce myself and thank the community for all I've learned so far. I'm a complete newbie to the world of knife sharpening and now find myself jumping in with both feet.....

Would appreciate it if anybody could point me in the right direction so I can educate myself on my most common upcoming use case? I have an EP on the way and after I get over my initial learning curve I could use some help before I do too much damage. I tried searching but I'm not sure I know the right keywords to use.

Question: I think my question is what procedure do I use on an EP to set a primary and secondary bevel on the Henckel 4 Stars I've had thinned (right term?) to 15*?

Use Case:

- Have about a dozen Henckel 4 stars of various shapes and sizes.
- In case it matters these are the older 4 stars. Bought all of them used before 1998.
- A while ago I had their angles reduced to 15* by a local sharpener.
- I think but can't confirm he set a primary and secondary bevel.

I know I want to keep these knives at 15* once I start sharpening them with my EP.

Would a good procedure be for me to:

- Start fresh and set an initial edge at say 18*?
- Then repeat the same process at 15*?

If yes, would I use all of my stones on the first bevel before I set the second bevel? E.g., I'd be going from 500 to 4000 using Shapton Glass stones.


Thanks very much in advance for any advice.

---Rob



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 Post subject: Re: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:35 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 566
The only way to know for sure what the primary angle is at is by using the sharpie trick with an angle cube. But from experience you're probably better off just putting an 18deg edge on top of whatever you have.

Cheers,

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:21 am
Posts: 58
Location: Long Island, NY
Thanks. I'll be sure to look into that.

What I'm really trying to understand though is what the procedure would be to get two different bevels on the same side of the same knife.

More precisely. What's the procedure to "taper" from the relative flat of the blade to 18* first and then 15* at the cutting edge?



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 Post subject: Re: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:00 pm
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You'd actually need to reverse you're procedure. Do the more shallow (acute) angle 15 degrees first, then put an 18 degree cutting edge. You can't put more shallow edge bevel (or micro bevel) on top of a steeper primary bevel (or main edge bevel). I would set the EP to the first angle you want to use for each side (say 13-15*), then grind each side to create your edge. Change the EP angle to your final edge setting (say 18* as you mentioned) then put that edge angle on each side.

If you don't have an Angle Cube, just paint the main edge bevel w/Sharpie on each side and try to match the EP as closely as possible to the edge bevel angle in the main part of the blade (not the tip area). If it's a little off between sides, don't worry about it. Grind the knife on each side until you have a clean bevel on each side w/the EP and sharpen the knife w/that angle. I wouldn't go though your entire stone progession, but get it to the polish level you like for looks. To put a small secondary bevel (many call it a micro bevel) on top of your main edge bevel, simply raise the rod angle a little (about 3 or 4 degrees worth) and sharpen each side just a little, going through your progression until you have a really sharp knife. You should barely be able to see that micro bevel - keep it quite small.


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 Post subject: Re: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:15 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:21 am
Posts: 58
Location: Long Island, NY
Thanks. It makes sense to me now. I was assuming the more acute angle needed to be at the cutting edge - then couldn't figure out the geometry to make that possible. [Don't believe it is.]

Here's an image I found after Steve's last post that makes sense to me now. Might be helpful to anyone else who stumbles across this thread.

Image



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 Post subject: Re: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:42 pm 
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That's a good diagram to visualize a blade that is ground with a definitive Shinogi line and a large blade road or blade path (what's labeled Secondary Edge in that diagram). What's confusing is that many people label that large bevel the Primary bevel and the actual edge bevel the Secondary bevel - reverse of that diagram ;-).

A knife like this fits that diagram style: masakage-yuki-210-gyuoto-larger-pics-t2122.html. Where the cladding on the blade flat gives way to the large bevel going down to the edge is the Shinogi line.

After all that, I was actually talking about putting a very small bevel on top of the actual edge bevel, a tertiary bevel, if you will. You won't really have a Shinogi and blade road/path on a Henckels Chef knife. The grind just transitions from the spine down to the actual edge bevel, so on that knife, let's just call the edge the Primary edge bevel. Some people thin the blade at the edge by putting a lower angle primary edge bevel (say 10-12* per side) first, and then put a much smaller bevel at the very edge that is a final angle that would work well for that knife/steel/usage, etc. Say 18* per side for your knife. You're basically reinforcing a wider/thinner edge bevel with a more obtuse micro bevel at the very edge for strength. Think of this approach as visualizing what's labeled Secondary and Primary on your diagram, only we're just talking about the edge bevel itself, if that makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:59 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:03 am
Posts: 152
SteveG wrote:You'd actually need to reverse you're procedure. Do the more shallow (acute) angle 15 degrees first, then put an 18 degree cutting edge. You can't put more shallow edge bevel (or micro bevel) on top of a steeper primary bevel (or main edge bevel).


Actually you can use both methods. I did a couple of blog posts on this. It features the Wicked Edge, but the idea is the same for the Edge Pro.

http://moleculepolishing.wordpress.com/ ... nvex-edge/ , bottom four posts. For a quick read, read the post called "Creating a convex edge using the Wicked Edge – conclusions".

Success!


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 Post subject: Re: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:29 pm 

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 am
Posts: 265
Location: Amstelveen, The Netherlands
Of course you may thin or convex a given edge afterwards. Poor idea, though. So doing you don't properly get rid of the sharpening debris and may damage the very edge.


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 Post subject: Re: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:13 pm 
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Mark, thanks for the link. Good stuff there! Through all those methods, he's still progressing from the most obtuse angle being at the very edge to more acute angles as you go up the blade from the edge to the spine. He might be doing it in a different order, but I was referring to attempting to put the more acute micro bevel at the very edge. This was my interpretation of the OP's intentions or rational.

To the OP, you could implement those techniques in the articles with an EP as well. You would need an angle cube for accuracy.


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 Post subject: Re: How to set a primary and secondary bevel using EP?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 139
If you're new to the EP, you might want to check this out.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4950

Also you said that you're jumping in with both feet so you should consider getting

BIG # 1 - Angle cube. a necessity for accuracy.
2 - Diamond plate for flattening your stones. As you use you stones - knife by knife at a minimum- the stones will
wear out and dish which changes your sharpening angle considerably. If you get the angle cube and check, you will be surprised.

HTH
Douglas


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