Fri May 11, 2012 7:27 pm
I'm trying to improve my sharpening facilities; I have glazing and poor abrasion issues with my Sun Tiger 1000/6000. I have given myself a budget of around 100 GBP (160 USD) for stones.
Looking around your tempting site, I see a LOT of love for the Naniwa Aotoshi 2000 grit (50 USD) and the Suehiro Rika 5000 Grit (50 USD).
Question 1; is the jump from one to the other too big? Too small? Just fine?
Question 2; if the jump is "just fine", I'm guessing that I could add a coarse stone (around 500-800) to the "pair", and have myself a decent "set" to handle most set up and sharpening tasks, (at least until my skills and/or requirments impel me to buy a truly fine finishing stone). So - are Bester still "da bomb" in coarse stones? Perhaps the 500 grit (50 USD)?
Chef Knives To Go Hi Paul, Can I post your question on our new forum? There are several pro sharpeners there that can help you. The green brick and rika are 2 of our most popular stones. they would work fine for you in combination but you might want to get a rougher stone too like the beston 500 do get the initial edge. I don't think you would need anything else besides those 3 stones.
Tuesday at 10:29am.
In "day to day" use (when my in-use knife needs improving) would I go straight to the 2000? If so, the coarse stone would only be used on new knives (infrequent), or to remove damage/nicks or when other people ask me to sharpen their (very blunt) knives?
Chef Knives To Go Hi Paul, a 2000 grit stone is fine for working on knives that don't need re-profiling. I usually only go to the low grit stones for fast metal removal and repair.
Tue May 29, 2012 5:45 am
Matsunaga the parent company of sun tiger and king waterstones is a well known stone brand. It's like the Norton oil stone of Japan, cheap and been around for ages.
Only problem is that they are slow as dog dirt and with modern alloys can be completely ineffective in some cases.
The Naniwa "green brick" 2k grit is a very good stone but it is a Aoto and that's not just another stone. Aoto stones are medium-fine grit stones often used before a finishing stone, the main trait to these stones is the ability to remove coarse scratches but also polish beyond its given grit rating. Typically these stones produce a lot of mud but the naniwa only does this with select knives, its typical working style is similar to most naniwa fine grit stones in that they collect most of the removed metal on the surface. This adds to the the high polish and luster of the bevel as you work the stone and can take the finish to 4000 grit and beyond with proper technique. The cutting edge however seems to stay a little coarser offering lots of bite. The green brick itself is a excellent finishing stone for a knife that gets used a lot. I often use this stone before my 10k Imanishi or Han-han stone if wanting a high polish.
The rika is a stone I have not used but was one that I had a lot of interest in. It's finish is said to be more natural in appearance (this makes a mess of... What grit is it?) and often looking less than 5k. This would be a poor choice to follow the green brick as the naniwa would likely already be at or past what the rika would do. I know it can polish to a similar shine as my 6k arashiyama.
My standard stone recommendation is the Arashiyama 1k & 6k. Think of it like the set you have now but on steroids, able to eat up hard alloys and put professional quality edges on everything from a yanagi to a pocket knife.
Coarse stones I'm still working with, I have a few but only one really works the way I like but it has a high price and wears faster than any stone I have ever used. That stone is the Nubatama 120 bamboo but its a stone for large bevels and not normal double bevels. Can be used for such but you will find extreme wear to the stone and a mud that grinds beyond the bevel up the side of the blade.
180 bamboo stone is a decent cutter but due to its hard binder, lack of mud, and higher grit it can be slow if used to set bevels. Seems to lose it "grab" into the steel and IMO its a finishing grit among grinding stones.
60 grit Ume, hope I don't hurt feelings with a review of this stone. Nice stone but I think its main job it to flatten. It's binder feels wrong and does not allow the grit to work as it should on the steel. All of my other coarse stones cut as fast or faster.
Naniwa 150 Omura, I have put this one off long enough time to buy!!! I have a good feeling about it and it comes with positive reviews from some trusted sharpeners. Also a killer price. Naniwa stones usually have a powerful cutting action with a smoother finish so it might even do as Thom says and be used prior to the green brick.
DMT XXC120 mesh, does not work well with low alloy high hardness kitchen knives. Works like a wood chipped on high wear resistance steels though.
Personally because of my likes for Aoto and natural stones I would look at both naniwa stones and a small natural or even the han-han stone.
For now, make a slurry on both 1k & 6k before use it may help with the glazing problem.
Wed May 30, 2012 12:21 am
The Naniwa omura is a good time saver and works well as a lead in to the Arashiyama 1K. It wears pretty fast but it's big and priced right. Here's the ohmura:http://www.chefknivestogo.com/naniwaomura.html
Wed May 30, 2012 2:21 am
Well the Naniwa Ohmura and the Green Brick aotoishi share several things in common:
They are both NOT natural stones. There is a natural stone they are both named after the natural Ohmura and some of the Natural Aoto will be coming in the next shipment with some variety of types of Aoto. The Naniwa stones both use synthetic abrasives, not natural stone abrasives. These are purely marketing terms.
These two stones also are two members of a series from Naniwa, like superstones or Choceras, but are the only two members. They produce a synthetic finish not a natural finish. If that is what you are looking for, look elsewhere.
BUT they are an excellent combination. They work exceptionally well on European knives as a 2 stone solution, producing a nice working edge and work great for repairs. Personally I prefer to use a diamond plate first and use the Ohmura to quickly eradicate the scratches from the diamond plate as this works quite well and it preserves the stone for this use rather than wearing it quickly and flattening it more often.
I keep going back to my 150 Nubatama for bevel setting and those instances where some metal removal is required but still no extremely deep scratch pattern.
A handy trick I use these days is to incorporate a drop of CBN in the swarf of the stone finer than the stone grit (1 micron would work well here or coarser if you want more aggression - like even 4 microns) - to essentially eliminate swarf buildup. Of course you shouldn't run the stone too dry either - the main problem of swarf buildup. Make sure not to get the paste formulation for this.
Wed May 30, 2012 11:40 am
I've heard the kitayama and some others described as having natural stone powders mixed in but never for the naniwa. Is that something that was fairly common in their description?
Wed May 30, 2012 9:15 pm
Jason, sorry I wasn't clear. You see the names of natural stones used as labels for synthetic stones because they have a 'cache' for the Japanese especially (and us knife nuts too). So people refer to an aoto stone or toishi they are using and after questioning it turns out it is a synthetic aoto. I've even seen stones called 'Renge' if they add little red coloring dots to their synthetic stones.
As a natural stone dealer, it has become a pet peeve of mine to have synthetic stones referred to in a shorthand notation and having people confusing it for the natural stones. It's also frustrating if a stone is mislabelled as one mine and it isn't from that mine. Or even worse if a natural stone that isn't an aoto is called one, even if the vendor admits to it as being purposely confusing. But the practice of labelling synthetics with natural names is so common that I accept it as 'the way it is'. So if a stone is called an ohmura, I refer to it as a synthetic ohmura if it is and a natural ohmura if it is that. I also will specify a Kyushu Ohmura if that is what it is as opposed to 'Wayayama' [sp] Ohmura which I didn't care for as much.
I will say though that the Naniwa ohmura is a pretty good imitation of a natural one
I don't have specific info on the Kitayama, but do know that for instance the black stone described as a synthetic aoto has no natural stone in it - straight from the vendors lips
Yea I know I sound like the Grammar police for natural stones, but somehow selling a stone that is rare that is actually more common is why we always keep hearing that each stone is a completely unique stone and unrelated to other ones from the same mine.
One of the more interesting stones I have seen recently is a natural synthetic blend, the Han-Han. It is an interesting stone ~ 6k grit. Somewaht small, it is also rare because the inventor or maker of this stone is gone from a natural disaster many years ago, so once they are gone, this particular process will hve gone with him. Mark has a couple on his site and hopefully we will get some more in the next shipment.
Thu May 31, 2012 1:42 am
The 600 naniwa has been a winner for me before I jump to the green or red brick or shaptons for that matter. I personally use the 600 naniwa on everything except when I am using naturals. It works real well and I would and will buy another when time. Jmbullman
Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:21 am
I would say the only thing to be careful about with the Naniwa Omura is that it scuffs pretty crazy sometimes--it's muddy and aggressive and soft. I don't use it much anymore because it's very sloppy. If you don't care, and keep it flat, it works pretty dang fast though.
The green brick will actually leave a much different edge than the Rika. The Rika will make the edge much less shiny, more toothy, and will feel totally different. If you are stopping at the Aotoshi, it will also end up sharper, because it's a 5k stone(duh).
I honestly don't think those are a good match up. I have both, and I never use one after the other. I like the Rika most because it's so nice to use, and it does a great job blending bevels on hamaguri edges(which, as a freehand guy, most all of my edges are).
I would say if you have a Naniwa Aotoshi, and want something to take the edge to the next level, get something higher grit and hard. The only one that comes to mind that I really liked was kinda oddball..the Sigma Power II 10k.
If you want to lead into the Rika 5k, get something 1k and hard.
If you want to do repairs, I've stopped using anything other than the Atoma 140. Neat, fast, even, and flat.
If you want to get something to set you up for
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