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 Post subject: Artifex 210 vs Tojiro DP 210 Gyuto thinness at the edge
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:51 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:24 pm
Posts: 297
Note from SteveG - this topic was split from an 240 Artifex review in the Customer Reviews forum.

I hear people say it needs thinning behind the edge a lot. Is the Artifex as thin behind the edge as the 210 tojiro dp gyuto? I was plenty happy with the tojiro dp when I got it and if this is as thin behind the edge as the tojiro I could live with the factory edge. However if the extra sharpening option takes it significantly closer to laser like performance I'd probably go with it. Any thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Artifex 240mm Gyuto Long Term Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 633
I'm thinking the Artifex will be pretty similar in thickness behind the edge as the Tojiro DP, it is just a better steel. Performance will probably be about the same.

The people that talk about thinning the Artifex are probably used to the performance of a laser type grind you'd find on a more expensive blade around $150 or more. If you like the Tojiro DP (I'm loving mine too! lol) then I don't think you will be disappointed.

That being said, if the finish sharpening includes some thinning and a finer edge, steeper edge I personally think it would be worth the extra $17 to get a better base edge to start with and performance closer to a more expensive knife. Still not a laser, but miles and miles above what those of us coming from western knives are used to.


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Artifex 240mm Gyuto Long Term Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:24 am
Posts: 294
DefMunky wrote:I'm thinking the Artifex will be pretty similar in thickness behind the edge as the Tojiro DP, it is just a better steel. Performance will probably be about the same.



In my experience the Artifex is much thicker than Tojiro. I have the Artifex in 210mm and Torjiro DP in 180mm, as well as the Tojiro Zen 210 Wa-petty (VG-10 and Wa-Handle).

The Artifex is thicker on both accounts.

Mowgs


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Artifex 240mm Gyuto Long Term Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:44 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:24 pm
Posts: 297
Thanks Def, Mowgs, Mark just confirmed that they do some thinning when they put the hand finish on the edge.

Mowgs, how does the Artifex cut OOTB compared to the DP? I'm happy with my 210 DP, nice and nimble but now want a 240 with better steel. And I like the profile on the Artifex, looks like a better rocker than the tojiro 210.


Last edited by rayong on Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Artifex 240mm Gyuto Long Term Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:00 pm
Posts: 2282
The Artifex AEB-L knives are awesome, but many of them are definitely thicker at the edge OOTB than an equivalent Tojiro DP. For me this is from experience on an Artifex AEB-L and 52100 210 Gyuto and Tojiro DP 210 Gyuto.

The Artifex's were good performers OOTB, but thinning the edge at the shoulder of the bevel to really soften that transition substantially increases the cutting performance.

For me the Tojiro DP needs no thinning at all, at least until it's sharpened enough to start moving the edge up the blade.

Keep in mind if you're using an Artifex, coming directly from thicker Euro or other thicker chef knives, then even OOTB they'll kick butt in comparison :-). AEB-L is also very nice to sharpen for a stainless steel.


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Artifex 240mm Gyuto Long Term Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Rayong - Why not try an Artifex for something different, in a different steel? AEB-L is really nice.

If you sharpen, it's not too difficult to thin the knife behind the edge. Just hold the blade at a very low angle, use Sharpie frequently if needed, and take your time, checking carefully that you're not taking the lower angle all the way to the edge of the edge. Leave some of the actual edge bevel there on the full length of the knife. A consistent size along the entire edge of the blade and on each side is what you're striving to achieve on the remaining edge bevel.

Once you do this, you'll have a small factory edge bevel (I think about 15 degrees) at the very edge, and a much larger transitional bevel into the main body of the blade. You'll find that sharpening may happen more quickly as well, with the smaller edge bevel. It's a win, win!


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Artifex 240mm Gyuto Long Term Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:24 pm
Posts: 297
Thanks Steve, that sounds great. Think that can be done slowly with a diamond or ceramic hone over time. This two angled (double) bevel should make for a stronger edge as well.

Not sure if this discussion has sidetracked the thread but I like the artifex for the aeb-l steel, the nice profile, the no nonsense G10 handle, all hypothetical till I get one in my hands. Does it rock cut well? The profile does appear to support that. I push, pull and chop often but I like to rock if I'm cutting something low. Ps: referring to the 240mm Artifex.


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 Post subject: Re: Richmond Artifex 240mm Gyuto Long Term Review
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:24 am
Posts: 294
rayong wrote:Mowgs, how does the Artifex cut OOTB compared to the DP?


Rayong-

In many ways, I agree with SteveG.

Let me begin by stating that i am a home cook, not a professional.

The Tojiro does not require any work out of the box. It is adequately thin and sharp enough to move through food very well.

The Artifex can get "sharp" but due to the thickness behind the edge may not move through food as you would expect a "sharp" knife to move. I, just as Steve suggested, eased the shoulders in order to increase performance. I did not even keep the OOtB edge longer than 2 hours.

In my opinion steel is not a very big deciding factor on choosing a knife. I do understand that each steel has its own properties, but how a knife cuts and feels in hand matters much more to me.

Kato Makes $500 knives out of white #2, while Tojiro makes $60 knives out of the same steel.

Devin Thomas makes $500 knives out of AEB-L, and there are $50, $100, $200 knives as well.

In summary, I would not suggest the Artifex unless you are looking for a project knife that you would like to play around with heavy thinning/regrinding.

I would save the $80-90 you would spend on an artifex or Tojiro and splurge on one of the following:
Kaneshige Wa-Gyuto
Gesshin Uraku Gyuto from JKI
Gesshin Stainless
Masamoto VG
Konosuke White
Kagayaki Carbonext from JCK

Mowgs


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 Post subject: Re: Artifex 210 vs Tojiro DP 210 Gyuto thinness at the edge
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:00 pm
Posts: 2282
I think the Artifex will rock chop just fine. It's flatter at the heel than the Tojiro DP, but there's plenty of belly at the tip, especially for smaller product.

Rayong - the bottom line IMO is whether you want to do some work to the Artifex OOTB to make it cut better. Heck try it OOTB - you might love it! If you don't, sell it on the Classifieds forum, recoup most of your money and put that towards something that's up the food chain a few notches.


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 Post subject: Re: Artifex 210 vs Tojiro DP 210 Gyuto thinness at the edge
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:24 pm
Posts: 297
Yeah, I'm on the same page as you guys. The Artifex is a project knife and I'm willing to grind it up and do stuff with it to get up the learning curve on sharpening and trying the AEB-L steel.

I have the tojiro dp 210 already and was just hopping the artifex was going to be as good a cutter but it seems like it can get there but needs a little work.

Speaking of Artifexes, the Artifex Extra Tall does appear to be a thinner blade being an Addict with a Yo handle. For those of you who have it, is it a better cutter than the stock Artifex and is it thinner behind the edge?


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