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 Post subject: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:47 pm 

Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 8:38 pm
Posts: 1394
So, I'm very very new to sharping and have been using an EP essential kit along with an additional 8K shapton. I find myself wondering if the 8K edge might be a bit too refined for some ingredients. It is an incredibly refined and smooth edge, but I almost feel that just a tiny, tiny bit more tooth might be more versatile. The 4K seems to be just a touch too course. I'm thinking maybe 6K? Any thoughts?



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 Post subject: Re: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:33 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:20 am
Posts: 1863
I will finish anywhere between a 2k and a 6k edge. Honestly, for me, it is more a function of whether or not I like the knife and how much time I have to sharpen as to where I finish :roll:.

Typically anything with Hitachi steels, AEB-L, etc I take up to my Arashiyama 6k stone. Anything western or cheap I leave at a 2k Green Brick. I do have a Naniwa 8k Super Stone, besides not liking the stone much, I also don't find that I get any performance back on my time investment on that stone.

Now the 8k is part of my progression for straights, but that is another story...


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 Post subject: Re: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:45 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:06 pm
Posts: 224
Some people prefer more tooth, some love ultra refinement. 8k is on the higher end, and many prefer lower finishes in the kitchen. However, if you feel 4k is too coarse, then higher refinement is likely for you. First, I'd make sure that you are fully refining the edge with your 4k, either by observing with magnification or by using it until you can feel the tiniest burr. 4k is fairly high refinement.

Then, if you are sure that you've maximized the 4k and still want higher refinement, try just minimal use of the 8k. Maybe just few edge trailing strokes over the whole edge. This way you'll get that little bit of extra refinement while retaining some tooth.

Adding a 6k would probably be a bit of over kill. But, knowing your gyuto buying history, you don't seem all that averse to overkill (not an insult, if I could amass that collection as fast as you I definitely would have).

Also, natural finishers are good at splitting the difference between refinement and tooth. They give a high polish but still bite. Maybe down the road if sharpening becomes a pleasure for you.


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 Post subject: Re: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:50 pm 
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Really Depends on the steel IMO,

Some steels take and hold 8k very well. They are usually very hard steels with a fine grain. (HAP 40, M390, high hardness White #1, AS, etc)

Some steels take 8k very well but need a little honing to keep in line (White #2, Blue #2, AEB-L, 52100, etc)

Some steels CAN take 8k but not hold. (Some stainless steels and lower hardness steels)

The trick is not to exceed the limitations of the steel for the job at hand.

If the 4k is too coarse and you have an 8k, I'd just do a few finishing stokes with the 8k and leave it. No real "need" to buy a 6k IMO, unless you just want to have one. :)

I think you are searching for the edge that drops through a little easier without losing teeth.

Assuming you are searching for that edge which will slice good but will have higher polish and less drag? Try making a 1k or 2k edge then go straight to 8k for cleanup.

The goal IMO is to have teeth, but polish the peaks of all the valleys of the scratches, so that basically your scratches act as teeth and the rest is polished for less friction. Mr. Eamon Burke used to like to finish his knife up to 8k, then back down to 1k or 2k for a couple swipes only, to add teeth to the polish.

Mad Rookie as well, I believe likes to finish around 2k then skip to 8 or 16k for cleanup?

I do tend to keep my edges toothier for the most part (2k for stainless, 4k for carbon) but on HAP40 you can go straight 8k at almost any angle and it just keeps ticking. The finer the grain the higher refinement allowed, but the rest all depends on how hard the knife is and how steep your edge is. I must admit though, lately I've been sharpening almost everything to 8k and it's addicting. :D



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 Post subject: Re: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:57 pm 

Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 8:38 pm
Posts: 1394
Awesome, thanks guys, that is some excellent advice! I took my slicer to 4K and it is pretty damn sharp (Global Classic), but took my Shig to 8K. Edge was a mirror and super refined, but found myself wanting something that was not quite as aggressive as a 4K, but little less refined than the 8K. I actually thought the OOTB edge on my Masakage Shimo was perfect and that seems to sit in between the 2.

Shaun, you hit it on the head. Looking for that balance between refinement and aggressiveness. Will definitely try stopping at 1 and 4 and do some light work with the 8 to finish. Really great recommendations guys, thanks!



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 Post subject: Re: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:45 pm 

Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 8:38 pm
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Also, no insult taken about overkill. Perfectly fine acknowledging I had a bit of a gyuto binge going on there. But as I've said in previous posts, the best way to become knowledgeable in a certain area is to experience the spectrum of what is available in order appreciate nuances that separate levels of performance and delineate personal preference. Basically, I figure it is better to spend a good bit now on a decent cross section of knives and steels so that future purchases are informed through personal experience and I don't end up continually purchasing expensive knives based on limited past experience. Ultimately, I'm hoping that this might actually save me money in the long run.

Comparing it to wine, when I became serious about collecting many years ago, had I taken a similar approach that I have with knives, I would have been able to avoid some very pricey purchases down the line that ended up being a waste of money given my preferences in taste.



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 Post subject: Re: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:22 pm 
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"Also, natural finishers are good at splitting the difference between refinement and tooth."

In this range the Meara natural works well over a very wide range of steels from simple carbons to zdp-189, and even high vanadium content steels. Leaves an interesting combination of toothy yet refined. Using tomonaguras you can make the stone work as a coarser or finer stone, letting you really fine tune an edge. A hard stone best for double bevels

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 Post subject: Re: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:33 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
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Shaun might actually be understating the capability of HAP40. Sometime before Christmas I put a 10 degree bevel on mine and took it up to 0.1u diamond film. Something crazy like 120K grit on the Shapton scale. I use it in a home environment a few times a week on end grain maple and the edge hasn't noticably deteriorated. A lot depends on the heat treat, though, so YMMV.

Cheers,

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:53 am 
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ken123 wrote:"Also, natural finishers are good at splitting the difference between refinement and tooth."

In this range the Meara natural works well over a very wide range of steels from simple carbons to zdp-189, and even high vanadium content steels. Leaves an interesting combination of toothy yet refined. Using tomonaguras you can make the stone work as a coarser or finer stone, letting you really fine tune an edge. A hard stone best for double bevels
---
Ken


My sentiments as well Ken. It's one of the reasons I like my Coticule so much. It'll do a toothy 8k and a refined 8k, depending on pressure and slurry.



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 Post subject: Re: 8k edge
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:45 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:28 am
Posts: 260
It's amazing how different knives act differently. I I strop on an 8k for a 52100 and it cuts everything with ease; however, I just put the same progression to a blue 2 and I lost performance on meats. The 8k destroyed all vegetables in its path though, I need to experiment more.


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