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 Post subject: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:55 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:58 am
Posts: 43
I do not know much about steels, but I understand there are practical differences in sharpening, reactivity to food, coloration, weight, handling etc...
I do not want to maintain my knives on the regular basis but I do want the sharpness... therefore clad knife seams like a logical way to go.
But what about powdered steel?? can it be because of it's high hardness as sharp as carbon blades?

I do not know if I should go with:

0) Haruyuki for 231$, because it has powdered steel that is probably as good as carbon for sharpness although more difficult to sharpen
1) Goko 160$ white #1 clad because it is handmade but reasonably priced
2) Kohetsu 160$ AS laser, but I am worried that this is a laser and might be susceptible to chipping more than other knives
3) Kikuichi 210$ get's great reviews although I have never seen it
4) Konosuke HD2 223$ Another laser that get's great reviews but I am worried about food discolorations
5) Something more expensive ??????????? Masakage Shimo? Richmond?? Something also?

Questions:
Which is the least maintenance, but most impressive knife out of the ones listed?
What would be the most impressive knife under 300$ dollars that you are familiar with at chef knives to go?
Am I asking the wrong questions and instead should be asking about some other criterias?
What is better for pealing fruits, 120mm pairing knife or 180mm petty knife?


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 Post subject: Re: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:18 pm
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Location: Madison Wisconsin
Tell us a couple things first and then we can help you pick a knife.

Do you know how to sharpen? I'm guessing no.
Are you using this at home or work? I'm guessing home use.
Are you right handed? I'll guess righty but it's not that critical anyway.
Would you prefer western type handle or Japanese wa handle? Hard to guess.

Edge longevity is very appealing to people that can't sharpen but high hardness stainless steel tend to cost more money. The first knife you mentioned is made with SG-2 stainless and it will hold it's edge a very long time. I highly recommend you learn to sharpen. It's easy and most of us have fun doing it.



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 Post subject: Re: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:00 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 707
Maybe wait for the Kohetsu HAP40 to hit town. Spring for the finish sharpening and it could be a looong time before the blade needs serious attention.


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 Post subject: Re: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:41 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:58 am
Posts: 43
This is strictly for home use and I am right handed!!!

For the last 20 years I have used German steel and have sharpened it monthly on Henckels steel sharpener.
I recently watched you tube video how to sharpen japanese knives and purchased 1000, and 5000 japanese wet sharpening stones.
I have no practical experience yet, but I have an idea on how to do it.
For some reason I do not like the idea of sharpening too much, Therefore I lean toward a knife that can retain sharp edge for a longer period.

My Masamoto VG knives have western handles..because, I am used to the western handles.
I don't know how much of the transition it would be for me to use Japanese WA or other handles.
If it is an easy transition then please let me know.

I love the ease of stainless steal.
Haruyuki has SRS15 powdered steal and seams almost perfect for me...but honestly there is so much I do not know about other knives..that I can not be certain.
I definitely have paralysis by analysis.
Need good suggestion.

Thank You


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 Post subject: Re: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:52 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:05 am
Posts: 82
Powdered steels retain their edge longer than their non powdered counterparts, but the dulling curve is different. In my experience (I've used zdp-189, m390 and r2/sg2), they lose their "HOLY CRAP, THIS IS AMAZING!" more quickly than other nonpowdered steels, but hold onto a 75-90% sharpness for quite a long time. You can get most blades nearly as "sharp as carbon blades"; the difference in ultimate sharpness between a well heat treated white #1 and something like sg2 isn't significant once the knife hits the board. Anyways, ultimate sharpness is never really the issue. It's more about the skill of the sharpener.

To knives:

Haruyuki is the same knife as the akifusa, and tends to be a little thick behind the edge; steel is great, but it needs some thinning.

Skip out on the goko; white #1's edge retention is not quite what you're looking for.

Kikuichi TKC is a good one as is the kono hd2; staining isn't really too much of an issue. They'll become dull grey after a bit of use.

I have other, very good beginner knives in mind, but not available from cktg.


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 Post subject: Re: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:13 pm
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Location: CT
I transitioned from Western to Wa handles over the past year or so; Wa feels much more natural and comfortable to me, and is usually much lighter as well.

LOL, Analysis Paralysis, we say my Dad has that too!

Kohetsu is a nice knife, really well done heat treating and seems to hold up well. Avoid bones and frozen foods and stuff like that and you most likely won't chip it if you are using it on a decent wood board or even some poly boards. Goko won't hold the edge as long since it is white #1, but is VERY easy to sharpen up, so it would be good to learn on. The exposed core knives will patina on the edge and still need to be dried.

The Kono HD and Kikuichi TKC are Semi Stainless; they can turn a dull grey instead of shiny grey, but usually don't react that much with a little care.

Haven't tried the Haruyuki yet. The Masamoto VG series is pretty thin behind the edge, so if you don't chip that regularly, you will probably be OK with the ones you list.

Sorry, but I gotta push this one! If you are looking for a Stainless 210mm Wa handled knife:
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/riarm3cu.html
M390 stainless steel, takes and holds a WICKED edge. This was a western handled knife that I converted to a Wa handle (Black Curly Maple ferrule, Curly Koa handle with nice figure in it, looks plain due to the angle of the pic) and then thinned and convexed the blade, so it will cut like crazy. Much thinner than the stock Artifex behind the edge, but not too thin that it chips easily. All stainless blade, stabilized Wa handle, crazy thin and sharp, will hold an edge for a long time.


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 Post subject: Re: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Which is the least maintenance, but most impressive knife out of the ones listed?

These are all low maintenance knives.

What would be the most impressive knife under 300$ dollars that you are familiar with at chef knives to go?

Depends....what attributes do you like in a knife. What's impressive for me, might not be for you. For me, with a budget that high, I'd have to find something I wanted and narrow the choice down from there. Did I want a stainless laser, or a wa handled carbon beauty, or a western handled tool steel, or......

Am I asking the wrong questions and instead should be asking about some other criterias?

Yes and yes! Find something you want. With a $300 budget, you need to find the attributes you want most and then pick from probably several contenders

What is better for pealing fruits, 120mm pairing knife or 180mm petty knife?

Neither IMHO, I prefer a 3.5" (about 90mm) parer for peeling fruit

At the end of the day, with a budget of $300, you have several really great knives to pick from.

The Kikuichi TKC is still one of my favorites in that price range and it's western handled.

The HD2's are perennial favorites.....a laser knife with great steel and a wa handle.

The Kohetsu's are a new kid on the block, but are a fantastic knife....super light, super thin, great steel.

The list goes on.....



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 Post subject: Re: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:14 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:44 am
Posts: 161
Location: Northern Virginia
Do you have a budget for sharpening stones or is that tied in with the knife budget?

Chipping is relative the edge geometry and metal. Being a laser won't effect this.

Is there a reason you don't want to do maintenance often? I ask because the difference between a fresh knife and one with some time on it is very notice able.


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 Post subject: Re: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:09 am 
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Location: USA... mostly.
666 <> First off, when you say, "I do not want to maintain my knives on the regular basis..." I interpret this as: you don't want to hone your knives often, you don't want to sharpen your knives often, you don't want to wash/dry your knives often, and you, pretty much, don't want to pay any attention to your knives beyond actually using them. If I am misinterpreting, I am sorry, but your statement is frustratingly ambiguous.

Now, if I am correct, I find your logic flawed, in that, you feel a clad blade is up your alley. And that is assuming, of course, you are even speaking of a stainless-clad carbon blade. I might agree with you if you were referencing a stainless-clad stainless core, I would agree even more if you were referencing a stainless-clad stainless PM core, I would disagree quite strongly if you were referencing an iron-clad carbon core, but I have no idea what you're actually talking about so I'm left tempering my response until you clarify what you're asking.

Regarding PM steel... heed Emo's comments. It's a pleasure to hear comments from someone who knows what the hell they're talking about.

Regarding your listed questions:
"Which is the least maintenance, but most impressive knife out of the ones listed?"
I have not used the Haruyuki, but I would venture to say this is going to require the least maintenance of what you listed as a yo-handled stainless-clad stainless PM core blade should have stellar edge retention, require little to no handle maintenance, and will have no reactivity issues whatsoever. Your concerns about the HD's reactivity are moot, and IF you are referring to the Kikuichi TKC, the same applies. Your concerns with these two knives should lie more so in that they are thinner knives. I will use this to segue into my disagreeing with Branwell. A 30 degree included angle on a 200 micrometer edge IS more susceptible to chipping than the same angled 400 micrometer edge... all things being equal (i.e., steel, Hrc, etc). I say this because you don't seem like the type to really care for your knives; I mean you said it yourself, "you don't want to maintain your knives [regularly]..."

Like I said, I haven't used the Haruyuki, but statistically it seems most appropriate for you.

As for your impressive angle. Remember this... one man's trash is another man's treasure, and due to such - it would be absolutely moronic for me to touch that question. Simple looking high performance workhorses impress me while blinged out handles on hamon patterned blades irrespective of performance float others' boats. Impressive is a relative term, it can not be quantified. There are actually humans who love Ken Onion Shuns... get my drift.?!

"What would be the most impressive knife under 300$ dollars that you are familiar with at chef knives to go?"
Although the most impressive knife to me on the menu is most likely one of the most inappropriate knives for you, I will answer your question; albeit, having no idea why you're asking. To me, the most impressive knife, for the dollar (& under $300), is hands down the Richmond Kohetsu. The series is really a game changer. The most impressive knife to me, simply under $300, is the Konosuke HD as the knife descends upon us from the heavens above. From the limited information you offer, I feel strongly that both of these knives are a poor fit for you.

"Am I asking the wrong questions and instead should be asking about some other criterias?"
Honestly, I'm still trying to understand what criterium you are basing these 3 or 4 questions on.

"What is better for pealing fruits, 120mm pairing knife or 180mm petty knife?"
Again... better is subjective. I want to say I would use a 120mm out of those two, but peeling what.?! If I was peeling an apple, I would recommend a 95mm. If I was peeling a crenshaw melon, I would use the 180mm.

Really, I am at a loss with your questions. At home, there is rarely something you can't accomplish with 210/240mm gyuto & a 95mm paring.



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 Post subject: Re: 210mm Gyoto need help selecting
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:41 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:22 am
Posts: 707
Was there a forum problem where some posts got dropped? This thread had responses from myself, Adam, and others.


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